Two Plus Two Older Archives - Middle Pocket Pair, overpair to the board on the flop

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Middle Pocket Pair, overpair to the board on the flop

Table was very loose
UTG was sLA-A
UTG+1 was LP-P
UTG+2 was LA-P
MP1 & MP2 are both minor lags, very loose and somewhat aggressive
CO & BTN are unknown
SB is a TAG
BTN is LP-P

Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, Hero calls, CO calls, Button calls, 1 fold, BB checks.

 If I had been in the CO or BTN I would have raised it here if I had the field limp in front of me. As it was I did not feel a raise was appropriate, but a limp/re-raise was a possiblity if a couple called behind me and that TAG raised. I like to have 6+ limpers in a hand to raise a middle pair for value pre-flop. If I had better reads on CO & BTN I might have anyway. I wonder what the TAG(SB) had that he could not complete getting 19:1. We were both at the table about the same amount of time, and in the last 50 or so hands, BB had never raised once pre-flop so his completion was about as good as it gets.

Flop: (9.50 SB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (9 players)
BB checks, UTG checks, UTG+1 bets, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, Hero raises, CO folds, Button calls, BB folds, UTG folds, UTG+1 3-bets, UTG+2 calls, MP1 folds, MP2 calls, Hero calls, Button caps, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls, MP2 calls, Hero calls.

Alright, now I have an overpair to the board, but the board is paired with both a straight draw and flush draw on it. I never think about folding, by the time it gets to me, there are 13.5sb in the pot and I may be ahead of a bunch of overcards. I chose to raise. When UTG+1 3-bets, I figure him for a 6, but when it gets to me, there is only one player left to act and I am getting 23.5:1 to call. Button now caps, ugg! But now I am closing the action at 28:1

Turn: (15.25 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (5 players)
UTG+1 bets, UTG+2 calls, MP2 calls, Hero raises, Button calls, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls, MP2 calls.

 Shillx is always telling me to work on turning my FH, I got it nailed this time. Even though button capped it, I did not have a good enough read on him to just call so I raised hoping either he or UTG+1 would raise.

River: (25.25 BB) K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (5 players)
UTG+1 bets, UTG+2 calls, MP2 folds, Hero raises, Button folds, UTG+1 3-bets, UTG+2 calls, Hero caps, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls.

No one played this like KK, and I am not gonna be scared of 66, so I just run the river, no slowing down. 2+2 taught me that.

Final Pot: 37.25 BB

So how did I do. Would you play it any differently and if so how. As always, criticism of any part of the hand is more than welcome. Thanks

Vern

Standard Disclaimer, I am by no means an expert at any of this.

Re: Middle Pocket Pair, overpair to the board on the flop

What's most interesting about this hand is preflop and flop (turn and river seems standard).

Preflop: I like the idea of raising with 6+ limpers. This is a situation that don't come up often so I'm not sure what's correct.

Flop: Well, there are no safe rivers to wait for and your relative position to the flop bettor isn't great for protecting anything. Raising to face half of the field with 2 cold is good IMO. And what's the matter with Button? Flush draw I guess. After the flop raise the rest of the hand is standard.

I would play it the same.

Re: Middle Pocket Pair, overpair to the board on the flop

Other than possibly raising preflop (my PFR% is sitting at 12%, which is probably too high, but I've also been bonus whoring at Interpoker, where you can too often steal blinds from UTG for fun and profit), I think you played this as well as you could have. The two calls on the flop probably felt dirty, but getting 28:1 you've more than got your odds to go boat chasing. I sure hope you milked this table for all it's worth if you could get 9/10 players to call preflop. That's as loose as play money tables! I sure hope you dragged down this pot, but if you got showed 66 or KK, well, I bet you could make back your losses without too much trouble from the players at this table.

Re: Middle Pocket Pair, overpair to the board on the flop

Well, raising pre-flop after 5 callers is for what purpose? Maybe buy the button, but I was thinking I was working direct odds to flop an 8 so I needed more than 5 opponents. I don't think I am raising for value because against 5 opponents, I am likely in a race against overcards, lots of them. I ran it in Poker Stove and got ~21% equity pre-flop against players who will limp with (TT-22, AJs-A2s, KQs-K2s, QJs-Q2s, JTs-J2s, T9s-T2s, 98s-92s, 87s-82s, 76s-72s, 65s-62s, 54s-52s, 43s-42s, 32s, AJo-A2o, KQo-K9o, QJo-Q9o, JTo-J8o, T9o-T8o, 98o-97o, 87o, 76o) which means a raise was likely better than a call since I was only putting in 16.7% of the money. With the two minor LAG's just limping I was likely way ahead of them and a raise is even clearer. When I saw it was limped to me, I counted 5, realized I didn't know CO or BTN and decided to call with the conviction that if one of those to called and the SB raised, I was re-raising since the field would be 8+ at that point and I was getting direct odds to flop a set.

Vern

Standard Disclaimer, I am by no means an expert at any of this.

Re: Middle Pocket Pair, overpair to the board on the flop

call me crazy but i dont like raising this flop. utg+1 bet into six players and nobody with a draw is folding. other than that, i like the rest of the hand.

UTG+1 turned over K6o
UTG+2 turned over red sevens

MHIG, one of my bigger pots.