Keeping fishies around
 

Live $2 table

Table is full of your typical card room fish. Only one player (other than me) thinks about his hands preflop, and this guy seriously asked me to be his poker coach.

Before I left for the poker room this morning, I happened to read a passage in HEPFAP about, when in loose passive games with loads of fish, you can try and NOT raise your good but not great hands and allow the fishies to limp in. While you cost yourself BB preflop by not raising, you gain it back when you flop a big hand and they chase you down with whatever.

So its limped to me in MP1 with A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. Normally I auto-raise this but I decided to limp. Additionally, I was pretty much feared by almost everyone at the table and a lot of my raises were making everyone go away. So 7 people to the flop:

Q [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] T [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Monster flop for me. SB bets right out, two calls, and I call. My thinking here is to get all these players behind me to call as well and build a huge pot. While my hand is far from invulnerable, I am not too fearful of anything right now. I believe one person mucked, so 6 to the turn:

7 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

SB leads again. Couple of callers to me, and I call again. At the time, my line was that I was going to raise the river (hoping the river was a blank), which would completely confuse the fishies and they would call with whatever they had because they were lost. I believe we lost one more, so 5 to the river:

7 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

And my dreams are shattered as the board pairs. However, a player who had folded immediately threw his arms up in disgust at the sight of the river. This made me pretty certain nobody had a FH since he obviously folded one. Of course, this shut down all the action. I bet, got two callers, and showed my winner.

A couple of the really big fishies at the other end of the table talk about how they would have been raising their asses off with that hand. Of course they have exactly zero respect from the rest of the table, so they can raise and raise and raise because of their image of being reckless idiots.

I realize my play was not standard and I likely cost myself anywhere from 4-7 BB's by not raising. My question is: is there any validity to this plan of action? Again, I decided to take this route because of my table image (tight-aggressive winner) and building a monster pot by keeping all these knuckleheads in as long as possible.

Re: Keeping fishies around
 

You have to raise at some point (like, every point)...HEPFAP assumes that you will bet your monsters and take down huge pots you made, not that your passive friends were making (it wasnt nearly as large as it could have been unless this table *really* respects you).
You need to loosen your image, raise crap all over the place and make them fold their better hands until they catch on, then become a TAG again

Re: Keeping fishies around
 

Raise the turn. You'll still get callers from anyone with a random Q/2 pair/gutshot/J9/KJ.

Re: Keeping fishies around
 

I would raise every street. I'd start raising worse hands in this position first in, and I hope you're raising your flush draws on the flop with 3 opponents in. If so they don't know whether you have a flush or are raising for value and a free card. Of course they don't know what you're doing anyway, but I bet you make more money off of this hand playing it aggressively from the start.

Re: Keeping fishies around
 

I would raise the flop. Your opponents will call any bet / raise with any lone [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. Anyone with K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] or J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] is not going to fold here, and they would be correct not to. There might be straight possibilities that someone is playing for too and they can't fold here correctly. A lot of bad players will habitually call here just to see if the turn improves their awful holding. You are missing bets from these people.

The same is true on the turn. People with the flush draw are not going anywhere, so take their money from them while you can. They're not going to call your river bet with busted draws. You have to get their money before then.

Re: Keeping fishies around
 

what TERRIBLE play on the flop and turn. really, unreal. you missed two chances to trap the field for multiple bets.

this is matched only by the terrible way that you played preflop, in not raising this.

which is matched ONLY by your "my dreams are shattered when the board pairs" nonsense on the river.

no wonder you can't beat .50/1. this hand is god-awful terribleness on a huge level.

raise preflop. you have an equity edge. you have a strong hand. frickin' raise.

raise the flop. you have the field trapped. if another crub falls on any street you lose everyone who doesn't have the K of crubs.

raise the turn. since you raised the flop, you probably can only bet this turn, but if you can, you're raising again, like you just don't care.

at least you got the river right, bet.

Re: Keeping fishies around
 

OMG
Ok, HPFAP was written with the assumption that your opponents are good. But even then, they used an offsuit hand as an example. With a good suited hand you give a ton of money by not raising as opposed to the moderate amount you would lose from not raising AJo.
Then you flop a flush, and 3 people will certainly call, and anyone behind you with a club will probably call 2 cold also, but you don't raise because you want to slowplay. Horrible, you lost tons of bets when your opponents were drawing dead.
Then the turn comes, and it's a perfect situation for you even though you slowplayed, no club, no board pair, and you get bet into again. So you raise here, right. No raise? Gag.
Then on the river, of course everybody pussies out because they think somebody has a boat/flush so you miss bets. Also, on the river, the fish don't have some miracle draw to chase, and they can't all have payoff hands, so you dont get those calls either.

Re: Keeping fishies around
 

I like it all assuming you were planning on making up the lost value on 6th and 7th streets. Plus, the metagame considerations of calling with the best hand the whole time are huge in a game where people aren't paying attention.

Re: Keeping fishies around
 

Here's a LOLRUS for you, seeing as how you found a way to not once raise an awesome hand preflop or the nuts postflop.

http://home.comcast.net/~dassmaster/lolrus.gif

Re: Keeping fishies around
 

the limp i wouldnt make from MP+1....limping with AJo with limpers in front isnt a bad idea (i think thats an example in SSHE) because AJ isnt a very strong multiway hand, and you have a better chance of protecting your hand if you dont raise with people in in front of you. the same idea is expressed (in more detail) in HEFAP. AJs however is a raise i think...the money you make from flopping tptk will more than make up for the money you "lose" knocking people out of this pf when you hit a nut flush.

bet the flop, turn and river. you could have trapped these people in a big pot where they would be getting odds to draw.....to a second best hand.

Re: Keeping fishies around
 

[ QUOTE ]
So its limped to me in MP1 with A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. Normally I auto-raise this but I decided to limp. Additionally, I was pretty much feared by almost everyone at the table and a lot of my raises were making everyone go away.

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You might look to raise more often and play a few more marginal hands to break that image (don't get stupid about it, but do get a little looser). Take advantage of the image you have, and when they start to adjust (if they ever do), go back to your tighter style.

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And my dreams are shattered as the board pairs. However, a player who had folded immediately threw his arms up in disgust at the sight of the river. This made me pretty certain nobody had a FH since he obviously folded one.

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You should broaden your thoughts on your hand reading. He might have folded a seven, but it's not clear that he folded a hand that would have rivered a full house. This is especially true if he was the one who folded on the turn.

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I realize my play was not standard and I likely cost myself anywhere from 4-7 BB's by not raising.

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Read that to yourself out loud a couple times, and then answer your own question:

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My question is: is there any validity to this plan of action?

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Re: Keeping fishies around
 

Thanks to everyone who tried to look like geniuses and reply with "OMG I CAN'T BELIEVE YOU DIDN'T RAISE OMG OMG OMG". I thought I said enough times that i tried a different play than normal for one hand and that it didn't work the way I wanted it, but I guess I figured I had to deal with morons who have to try and make themselves look smarter than they are.

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You should broaden your thoughts on your hand reading. He might have folded a seven, but it's not clear that he folded a hand that would have rivered a full house. This is especially true if he was the one who folded on the turn.

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This player folded Q7o preflop.

Re: Keeping fishies around
 

[ QUOTE ]
Thanks to everyone who tried to look like geniuses and reply with "OMG I CAN'T BELIEVE YOU DIDN'T RAISE OMG OMG OMG". I thought I said enough times that i tried a different play than normal for one hand and that it didn't work the way I wanted it, but I guess I figured I had to deal with morons who have to try and make themselves look smarter than they are.

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You should broaden your thoughts on your hand reading. He might have folded a seven, but it's not clear that he folded a hand that would have rivered a full house. This is especially true if he was the one who folded on the turn.

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This player folded Q7o preflop.

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Did you at least appreciate the LOLrus? Really though there's playing a hand 'differently' and there's playing a hand profitably. You chose differently, this time.

Re: Keeping fishies around
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Thanks to everyone who tried to look like geniuses and reply with "OMG I CAN'T BELIEVE YOU DIDN'T RAISE OMG OMG OMG". I thought I said enough times that i tried a different play than normal for one hand and that it didn't work the way I wanted it, but I guess I figured I had to deal with morons who have to try and make themselves look smarter than they are.

[ QUOTE ]
You should broaden your thoughts on your hand reading. He might have folded a seven, but it's not clear that he folded a hand that would have rivered a full house. This is especially true if he was the one who folded on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

This player folded Q7o preflop.

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Did you at least appreciate the LOLrus? Really though there's playing a hand 'differently' and there's playing a hand profitably. You chose differently, this time.

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Absolutely I liked the LOLrus, although I like the ROFLCopter a little better. However, the "you should have raised!" posts were clearly pointless.

Re: Keeping fishies around
 

raise preflop, raise the flop. If you raise preflop, you will get called by weaker hands in .5/1 for sure. And if you get it HU or steal the blinds, that's fine as well. I think you get maximum value by raising the flop rather than waiting till the turn on this board (waiting till the river is absolutely horrible). You might get 3bet by top pair, 2 pair, or a smaller flush allowing you to cap. Also everyone will probably will call one more on the flop but might not call a turn raise. Also, it could get checked to you on the turn, or someone to your right could bet, preventing you from "trapping" the field for 2 as you could have on the flop. Also, if a 4th club comes people will start dumping weaker hands that they would have called a flop raise with.

Re: Keeping fishies around
 

I'm confused. They limp in with everything and fear your raises at the same time? Plus they're reckless raisers? Doesn't sound like typical fish.

Re: Keeping fishies around
 

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I'm confused. They limp in with everything and fear your raises at the same time? Plus they're reckless raisers? Doesn't sound like typical fish.

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I continually see hands go unraised preflop with AA, KK, QQ, AKs, AK, etc. at these tables. If I raise in EP, the flop is on average 4-handed. I completely understand that I missed bets on every street. I was hoping to avoid all the useless posts that have been in this thread chiding my non-raising, (except for the LOLrus) but reading isn't some people's strong suit. My question was about my play in relation to the HEPFAP paragraph, which was answered by the first person who responded. Everyone else that has responded has just been "I'd raise this!" which is a totally pointless response.

Re: Keeping fishies around
 

The paragraph in HPFAP is referring to games where, when you raise, you will only be called by hands which dominate yours. As I'm sure you have seen, .5/1 on partypoker is not one of these games. You will be called by inferior hands when you limp, as well as when you raise. So might as well raise for value.

Re: Keeping fishies around
 

The game isn't PP, its live 2/2 (no difference, I guess).

The paragraph/page in question is on page 159 and says:

"So, how do you apply the previous concepts to a very good hold'em game? That is, in a loose, passive game where many people see the flop and then play poorly after that. You should:

1. Play more hands than you would if the players were better, especially if you can get in for a single bet.
2. Frequently keep it to a single bet before the flop more than most people think because you gain a lot when bad players make incorrect calls on the flop and beyond, as long is the pot is kept small."

And so on. My mistake is obviously playing waaay too slow on the flop and throughout, as I kept hearing in my head "keep them all in" and before I knew it, the river was dealt. Poor postflop play by me (thanks to all who jumped in to point that out), although in relation to HEPFAP, I think the preflop limp in EP has merit. In LP I can't wait to raise the table, though.

Re: Keeping fishies around
 

actually, while my comment still applies, I think you were referring to the loose games section of HPFAP. There, the authors were talking about keepin the pot small with hands like AQo. With a hand like AJs, you want to create a big pot usually if it is already likely to be multihanded so that you can win big if you hit a flush draw, etc. If the other players are gonna call with absolute trash, as they often do in .5/1, then not raising with hands like AQo, AJo is giving up a lot. This is talked about in Small Stakes Holdem and mentioned in HPFAP briefly.

Re: Keeping fishies around
 

yea, please see my post below in reference to this section. The authors of HPFAP clarified this advice in SSH. There is a part in HPFAP where it says something to the effect of " If your opponents are coming in with absolute trash, obviously you are forfeiting too much equity by not raising"

Re: Keeping fishies around
 

I gotcha. Wrong spot for me to get cute and against the absolute wrong players. Thanks for your advice. Also, do you happen to know where in SSH this is addressed?

Re: Keeping fishies around
 

I think somewhere in the beginning when it talks about building big pots with suited high cards or something. I think it mentions that not raising in EP with AJo or after a ton of limpers is ok, but that not raising AJs is a serious mistake.

Re: Keeping fishies around
 

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Additionally, I was pretty much feared by almost everyone at the table and a lot of my raises were making everyone go away.

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I think this is an excellent example of why players who are able to change gears are so dangerous. Everyone was scared of you which meant you could relentlessly steal pots but your big hands weren't getting paid off as much as you wanted. Changing gears for an orbit of the table to a LAG might have made a big difference against these guys.

Re: Keeping fishies around
 

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Additionally, I was pretty much feared by almost everyone at the table and a lot of my raises were making everyone go away.

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I think this is an excellent example of why players who are able to change gears are so dangerous. Everyone was scared of you which meant you could relentlessly steal pots but your big hands weren't getting paid off as much as you wanted. Changing gears for an orbit of the table to a LAG might have made a big difference against these guys.

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I actually thought about doing that a few times but wussied out. I might try that today and see what happens. I dunno about stealing pots against these guys who often call down and call the river with king-high. There are so many instances when, on the river, the guy who has been betting all the way will get called down by the last remaining player just to "keep him honest" or "see what he's got". Most of the time, the caller has bottom pair, no pair, busted draw, etc. For instance, one hand I raised in EP with JJ and got called only by the BB. Flop is K-9-3. I bet, he calls. Turn 7. I bet, he calls. River T, completing a flush draw and straight draw. I check behind him. He shows T7o.