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- Stud (http://archives2.twoplustwo.com/forumdisplay.php?f=18)

- - $3/$6 hand (http://archives2.twoplustwo.com/showthread.php?t=399711)

No notes on these two unfortunately, but nothing out of the ordinary as far as I could tell.
Discuss.

7 Card Stud High ($3/$6), Ante $0.50 (converter)

3rd Street - (1.17 SB)

Seat 2: xx xx 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 3: xx xx T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 4: xx xx A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 5: xx xx 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 6: xx xx J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 7: xx xx 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___folds
Hero: A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___bets

4th Street - (4.17 SB)

Seat 3: xx xx T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 6: xx xx J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___bets
Hero: A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___calls

5th Street - (3.58 BB)

Seat 3: xx xx T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___checks___calls
Seat 6: xx xx J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___bets
Hero: A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___checks___calls

6th Street - (6.58 BB)

Seat 3: xx xx T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 6: xx xx J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___checks___calls
Hero: A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___bets

River - (9.58 BB)

Seat 3: xx xx T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] xx___raises
Seat 6: xx xx J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] xx___checks___calls
Hero: A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___bets___folds

Total pot: (14.58 BB)

by BETS on third, does that mean you came in for a completion? I would probably raise 4th and hope to get it heads up, especially if you already showed aggression by coming in for the full bet.

On 5th, I would be troubled that you have a dead A and 4 and are drawing very thin if he does have the flush. But then his check on 6th tells me that your hand is good and a bet is in order.
I probably check the river but I think my river play is a bit weak after discussions on here the last couple weeks.
I dont know if I could lay down the river. He may be a donk and just backed into kings up, thinking they are good over the Qs on board and guessing you didnt have trip 4s with the dead 4 out there and not seeing anything else too scary out there.

[ QUOTE ]
by BETS on third, does that mean you came in for a completion?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes.

What makes it tough is that he might be willing to raise with K's up in this spot. I think check-calling the river is the better plan in this spot--you have to be worried that either one of them have a draw that got there, but you should be willing to pay off with aces up given the previous action and the fact that your hand is concealed.

4th:I like the call here.If you rase & seat 3 has a strong draw,it's likely that he won't leave,& then he'll be tied into the hand.

5th:I would rather raise now & try to lose #3.Seat 6's powerful board will help persuade him to leave.

River:Getting 13 1/2 to 1,I would prefer to call.

I kind of like the fold, one of these guys has to have you beat. When T86 wakes up on the river and raises you I think he has to have something here, better than kings up my guess is a flush but could be a straight. QQ calling 2 bets with the chance of a 3-bet/cap coming has to be pretty strong to, I think he just has Q's up but he could very well be stronger than that.
That said, i usually call because I'm getting a great price but you are almost definately beat so folding is probably right.

3rd: I personally never bet from the BI (leak in my game?, it comes off as confusing but most people aren't smart enough to realize you're actually trying to show strength

4th: Good
5th: I agree, c/r ing here is a good idea to try to get seat 3 out, and if you can't then you're probably going to be outdrawn here
6th: Really confusing looking to me when you check 5th, then bet sixth when you're opponent with the scary board improves
7th: Good fold, seat 3 probably just hit his club draw, you almost never have the best hand here, kings up doesn't make much sense given the action. I agree with Trish, check/call here is probably the best/cheapest line.

I think against the average player you should fold the river here. Keep in mind though i have seen people raise with stuff like kings up in a spot like that. I'd be more willing to call in this spot with pocket aces rather than split aces because your strength is more hidden.

Having said that I would still fold here.

Anyone fold 4th.

I probably wouldn't do so at the time. But you are probably up against at least 1 4 flush. And you have a dead 4 and a dead A.

It seems you best case scenario is that you are against a pair in 2 spots. But if this is the case you don't have a monstrous edge. Yes, you have an edge. But if you are against 1 4-flush you aren't quite sunk. But if you are against 2 you are messed up bad.

I’d like to hear more thoughts on 5th streets. Two people have said they would check-raise. I’m not so sure that’s a good idea -
Also, who bets 5th?

Hi Roland,

First, a comment on players for which you do not have a read. I used to be very careful with these. I have changed this approach. When I see a player for whom I have no info, I assume generally weak till I see any other indication. It seems to me this approach works. I'd like to see others' comments on this.

3rd: It seems to me the tables I play (2/4, 3/6, 5/10) are so live/aggressive that I expect to be able to Bring-In and re-raise on 3rd. If the other A was not out, would you still bring in for the full bet? I don't remember the last time I brought in for a full bet.

4th: The boards sure are not what you want to see. However, I would probably raise:
1- I think you are probably ahead.
2- suspected weakness of players.

5th: Spades look scary. I agree with the call.

6th: I agree with the bet. I would also dismiss Seat 6 on a draw. Indeed, it looks to me like Seat 6 has confirmed the suspicion of weakness with his check/call.

7th: I agree with the bet. I think the fold is a mistake.
I would guess your read is correct most of the time but not often enough to justify a fold.

Cheers,

Re: Some more thoughts and Results

Okay, my thoughts:

3rd street:
This stuff about the full bet bring-in has been discussed a million times on here, so I’m not gonna go into it. Let’s just say that I don’t want a million callers with this deadish hand, that any aggressive player with a big pair is going to raise anyway and that I’m not necessarily giving up deception completely because most of these guys have no clue and don’t know what’s going on when I do that.

4th street:
I think most people raise too often on 4th street. Personally, I often delay till 5th because that raise has a much better chance of actually getting the desired result.
In this spot for instance, with two possible flush draws cutting deep into my equity, raising is sub-optimal. I can’t imagine that my average equity is much higher that 30% (thus, I can’t raise for value). All it does is build a pot for seat 3 if he has a flush draw (and he may very well fail to that himself) and open myself up to a 3-bet from seat 6.
Thus, my plan was to check-raise 5th.

5th street:
This street still puzzles me and I have no idea if betting or check-calling is better.
Some people have said they would check-raise. I have two problems with this:
a) Seat 3 may call anyway. These guys rarely fold - it’s like playing with a full table of Andy Bs.
b) It would suck to get 3-bet. If he has it, I’m drawing very slim and even if he has only a 4-flush and a pair, I’m not exactly a huge favourite.
Bottom line, I believe seat 3 is usually calling with the hand I want him to fold (4-flush) but usually folding the hand I wouldn’t mind him calling with (any under pair).
So, since the pot isn’t exactly huge, risk-reward on check-raising is off imo.

6th street:
That check can only mean he’s full of it (or that he’s very tricky, but who goes for the check-raise here with a flush?). Easy bet.

River:
I’m pretty sure the fold is good. I folded without hesitation really.
Of course, there is that slight chance that seat 3 hit kings up. But how many players would raise there with kings up? 20% maybe? And how many players are dumb enough to over call with queens up? 50%? Doing any math on this would be pointless because those are only rough guesses, but you get my point…

Any more comments welcome.

Results:

Seat 3: [ 2c Qc Tc 8c 6d Kh 6c ] (a flush).

Seat 6: [ 7h 9d Js Qs 8s Qh Th ] (caught his gutshot on the river - just enough to get him in trouble).

I'm new to stud so I have no idea what I'm talking about, but why don't we raise 4th street? Don't we assume our AA is presently best and a raise may knock out seat 3? Again, I have no clue so someone explain.

[ QUOTE ]
Again, I have no clue so someone explain.

[/ QUOTE ]

I thought I did.

[ QUOTE ]

I thought I did.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh, I posted my response before I read that. Sorry.