KK: raise more on flop?
 

Not a bad beat post. And I know that these idiots would have called any bets apparently. (I'm concerned with playing this hand 'correctly', not asking how I could have avoided this, if that makes sense.) Pushing the flop seems to let them out of making a mistake too easily.

So, my question is, do you like my flop raise? If not, what do you raise to on the flop? PP $22

PartyPoker, Big Blind is t15 (10 handed) Converter on pregopoker.com

UTG (t800)
Hero (t800)
MP1 (t910)
MP2 (t800)
MP3 (t800)
CO+1 (t770)
CO (t800)
Button (t790)
SB (t730)
BB (t800)

Preflop: Hero is in UTG+1 with K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
UTG calls t15, <font color="red">Hero raises t70</font>, <font color="gray">MP1 folds</font>, <font color="gray">MP2 folds</font>, <font color="gray">MP3 folds</font>, <font color="gray">CO+1 folds</font>, CO calls t70, <font color="gray">Button folds</font>, SB calls t60, <font color="gray">BB folds</font>, UTG calls t55

Flop: (t295) 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB checks, <font color="red">UTG bets t60</font>, <font color="red">Hero raises t275</font>, <font color="gray">CO folds</font>, SB calls t275, UTG calls t215

Turn: (t1120) 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, <font color="red">UTG raises t455 (All-in)</font>, <font color="red">Hero raises t455 (All-in)</font>, <font color="red">SB raises t385 (All-in)</font>

River: (t2415) 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)

SB shows [ Ts, Qs ] a pair of fours.
UTG shows [ 3h, 3c ] a straight, two to six.
HERO shows [ Ks, Kc ] two pairs, kings and fours.
UTG wins 140 chips from side pot #1 with a straight, two to six.
UTG wins 2275 chips from the main pot with a straight, two to six.

Re: KK: raise more on flop?
 

I push. You will get called anyway

Re: KK: raise more on flop?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I push. You will get called anyway

[/ QUOTE ]

Except I can't know that at the time, because his flop 'bet' of 60 means absolutely nothing. If I KNEW that I'd get called, of course I'd push.

Re: KK: raise more on flop?
 

Personally, I think your play was about optimal.

Re: KK: raise more on flop?
 

I don't understand the flop raise. Are you dumping it if an A, 3 or spade hits? It would appear you are committed with this raise.

The chips in the middle represent almost half your stack, and there are a lot of cards you don't want to see on the turn. I don't love the spot I'm in, but I think I push here because to charge the draws enough to make them incorrect to call I will committ myself, so I might as well charge them full price.

Re: KK: raise more on flop?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I don't understand the flop raise. Are you dumping it if an A, 3 or spade hits? It would appear you are committed with this raise.

The chips in the middle represent almost half your stack, and there are a lot of cards you don't want to see on the turn. I don't love the spot I'm in, but I think I push here because to charge the draws enough to make them incorrect to call I will committ myself, so I might as well charge them full price.

[/ QUOTE ]

I looked at the UTG's bet as totally meaningless. Purely a donkey blocking bet. Basically, it told me next to nothing about what he had. And of course, the only other information I had is that the SB had checked and the pot was four handed.

So, I ignored the UTG's bet and proceeded as if it were checked to me. I'm not saying that this was correct, only that this was my thinking. So, if there had been two checks to me, would I push this flop? I don't think so.

Obviously, the reason I posted the hand, though, is because I'm not sure if I played it correctly.

Re: KK: raise more on flop?
 

I don't necessarily think pushing the flop is a bad thing. The pot is big. It would be ok if you pushed and won it. There are several players involved and lots of draws. If they have an overpair, flush draw, or str8 draw they will probably call a push anyways. Obviously you cant fold KK here so I think making them pay the ultimate price is fine. By raising anything less sometimes they can call for implied odds, that is if you aren't willing to fold when it looks like they hit and with this big of a pot and KK I wouldn't even consider that. The way you played it was ok I think without knowing what they had at the time, but pushing is something to think about.

Re: KK: raise more on flop?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I don't necessarily think pushing the flop is a bad thing. The pot is big. It would be ok if you pushed and won it. There are several players involved and lots of draws. If they have an overpair, flush draw, or str8 draw they will probably call a push anyways. Obviously you cant fold KK here so I think making them pay the ultimate price is fine. By raising anything less sometimes they can call for implied odds, that is if you aren't willing to fold when it looks like they hit and with this big of a pot and KK I wouldn't even consider that. The way you played it was ok I think without knowing what they had at the time, but pushing is something to think about.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for the responses guys. Pushing DID cross my mind more than a little bit. But I didn't want to let UTG's weak a$$ blocking bet dictate my play of the hand. However, due to the 3 calls of my pre-flop raise, the pot was very large already, and it is usually my style of play to simply put my chips in and take those pots down.

Re: KK: raise more on flop?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Personally, I think your play was about optimal.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: KK: raise more on flop?
 

I'd raise to 350 on the flop, push the turn.