$25-$50 NL KJo in the bb
 

I don't normally play this sort of game but I'm pretty sure there are 2 guys in it who do not know how to play poker so I'm taking a shot.
5 handed, I'm in the bb. Folded to the sb who makes it $150. He has been raising quite a bit preflop, and has raised 4 times in a row or so when it was folded to him in the sb. I have $7000 he has me covered. I've been folding to his raises, and we haven't really been involved in a hand. He has shown a willingness to fold to smallish preflop re-raises, but he has also called some sizeable all-in re-raises from short stacks with hands like 88 and A2s.
Anyway, he makes it $150 I re-raise to $500 with KJo. He calls. Flop comes J75 rainbow. He checks, I bet $750 he calls. Turn A putting 2 hearts on board. He checks. My play?

Re: $25-$50 NL KJo in the bb
 

check turn, try to get to river cheap. He may have a hand like JT QJ and you cant call a CR now. Id check and call a reasonably river bet barring a T or Q showing up.

Re: $25-$50 NL KJo in the bb
 

i would bet 1600-1800...
if he calls, i would check any river through but a J.
if he checkraise, v v tough decision, probably fold.
if he calls and leads river foldfodlfodlfoffldfold, unless he makes some weak post oak bluff, then youll have to decide whether to pay off or bluff raise all in.

Re: $25-$50 NL KJo in the bb
 

I agree with all of this. I do think this is a good card for villain to C/R any kind of draw or even a hand like 88 on a bluff. The reasoning is that he probably expects you to check the turn with a hand like AK, AQ. I'd still bet the turn though and I don't think you can call a C/R given most opponent's hand ranges.

Re: $25-$50 NL KJo in the bb
 

if it's a great card for villain to bluff c/r and we're not calling a c/r, why on earth are we betting?

Re: $25-$50 NL KJo in the bb
 

I like checking behind and call most rivers. Also, i think the PR re-raise is bad, If you're going to do it, try to take it down and make it 650 or something. Given your player description, i would rather use that info to extract more postflop than start going nuts with KJo preflop trying to win $200.

Re: $25-$50 NL KJo in the bb
 

[ QUOTE ]
if it's a great card for villain to bluff c/r and we're not calling a c/r, why on earth are we betting?

[/ QUOTE ]

Anyone who wants to bet the turn here:

1) doesn't understand poker very well,
2) didn't take time to think the situation through,
3) is making some poor assumptions, or
4) some combination of 1, 2, and 3

ML4L

Re: $25-$50 NL KJo in the bb
 

A couple of reasons:

"He has been raising quite a bit preflop, and has raised 4 times in a row or so when it was folded to him in the sb."

I think this is the most important one. When someone has been running over the table like it seems he has been, they understand that their fold equity is drastically reduced. He could very conceivably think you are betting AK or AQ in this spot and not folding to any C/R. As a result, I think you are less likely to be bluff C/R'd in this spot.

The second reason is that if you check, you put yourself in a gross situation on the river.

Re: $25-$50 NL KJo in the bb
 

oh snap.

Re: $25-$50 NL KJo in the bb
 

[ QUOTE ]
oh snap.

[/ QUOTE ]

Just tellin' it like it is. Note that I left myself a little bit of wiggle room in case Ray comes in and explains why betting the turn is correct... [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: $25-$50 NL KJo in the bb
 

PS, paluka against this type of opponent, calling KJo might be better than raising it. I normally raise it against a clear steal from CO/button, even more so if the blind calls. But here, you have position and depth, hu, etc... plus it sounds like he is going to call ANY raise. At the same time, there is no reason to call, you can just as easily muck this and move on, believe you won't lose much long term. There are a ton of hands I'd rather play in this spot than KJo for a raise.

Re: $25-$50 NL KJo in the bb
 

ML,

Especially when playing HU, I think this turn needs to be bet a lot of the time.

Re: $25-$50 NL KJo in the bb
 

i dont know that i disagree with you but there are a couple potential arguments for checking the turn that i think i do disagree with. i dont think you are getting checkraised by a worse hand very often and i dont think a turn check induces a great deal of value on the river when you are winning.

what is your plan on a river blank?

Re: $25-$50 NL KJo in the bb
 

Check turn, call river.

First Attempt at Clarification
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
if it's a great card for villain to bluff c/r and we're not calling a c/r, why on earth are we betting?

[/ QUOTE ]

Anyone who wants to bet the turn here:

1) doesn't understand poker very well,
2) didn't take time to think the situation through,
3) is making some poor assumptions, or
4) some combination of 1, 2, and 3

ML4L

[/ QUOTE ]

OK, serves me right for being so smug, but let me try to clarify my stance, because there ARE some reasonable assumptions that could make the turn a bet. I still like a check, and here's why:

Based on what OP said, I would imagine villain to be typical "non-thinking" overaggressive player. Not necessarily bad/stupid, but probably not thinking about things on the same level as OP and the people on this forum. Villain likely views OP as a tight player, given what has transpired so far.

I do think that it is important to note that I don't think that either player in this situation should view this spot as being analagous to a heads-up match. Regardless of what OP has held in the previous hands in which he has folded HU, it likely appears that OP is playing a strategy far different from a reasonable strategy in a heads-up match (i.e. it is statistically unlikely that OP would fold four consecutive times in position in a heads-up match).

Anyway, preflop, opener could hold any two. Once reraised, I think that it is reasonable to assume that he would put OP on a relatively strong hand, since to this point, he has not shown a willingness to resteal. Given that villain has folded to similar reraises, I think that we can narrow villain's holdings a bit here as well: pairs, paint, smaller connectors, maybe ragged aces.

Once the flop comes down and villain check-calls, I think that his range is heavy toward one pair hands, with some stuff like 98 mixed in. Again, at this point, he likely puts OP on a decent hand: a pocket pair, a jack, or AK/AQ/KQ. Villain has probably decided to peel with a hand that he thinks might be best or might have outs and reevaluate on the turn.

On the turn, the ace is unlikely to have helped villain; OP is still likely ahead. But, putting ourselves in villain's shoes, how are we going to react to a turn bet? We view our opponent as a tight player. We think that our opponent would definitely bet here with a set, probably bet his big ace, maybe bet KK/QQ/jack, probably not bet a hand like 99, and probably not bet a hand like KQ. Given this range, I think that villain, despite his looseness, is likely to release a lot of worse hands to a turn bet.

Regarding the chance of a bluff check-raise, I agree with cwl that the chance of a bluff check-raise here is relatively low. Again, given that a tight player has shown strength at every opportunity, it seems like an odd spot to run a bluff, particularly since very few hands picked up additional outs from the ace and since villain's hand range was moderately narrow to begin with. The only way that I could see a bluff check-raise here would be with a thought process along the lines of:

"Hmmm, our opponent seems tight. Probably doesn't want to play a big pot without a very strong hand here. Only really strong hands that he could hold here would be AA/JJ/AJ. I think that there is a good chance that he is getting greedy with a moderate made hand or that he is bluffing, since a hand with showdown value would probably check behind. I think that he'll lay down to a check-raise."

But, frankly, I think that line of thought is a little silly, particularly given how we've characterized villain to this point. So, I wouldn't be too worried about a bluff check-raise.

In any event, I think that, if OP bets the turn, he drags the pot immediately a really large chunk of the time. Which is fine; the pot is getting pretty big relative to the money left behind, and if you check, you pay off whenever villain does improve on the river. But, let's look at a turn check now...

Again, if we are villain and the turn gets checked through, I think that the hand range on which he puts OP changes significantly. He can effectively rule out a set or other big hand (I know that people check sets behind here in this game, but from a Bayesian standpoint, I don't think it's worth much weight here). It now looks like OP has KK/QQ/jack/pocket pair that is trying to get to showdown and/or is scared of the ace or perhaps a bluff that has decided to give up. If you are a typical, overaggressive player, what do you do with a lot of hands on the river here? What would you have done with those same hands on the turn? I think that some of the value of a turn check comes from inducing bluffs and/or thin value bets from hands that might have folded the turn if we continued representing a strong hand. Additionally, I think that there is some value in the fact that some hands that might have folded the turn to a bet will look OP up on the river out of curiosity after the check. If villain is not terrible, he might realize that OP was just exercising pot control on the turn and that he shouldn't pay off with 88. But, I think that in the back of the mind of a lot of players remains the idea that, "Why would this seemingly-straightforward player bet this river with middle pair if he could just take a free showdown? Maybe he is bluffing..." So, I think that you are likely going to get looked up more on the river than you would if you bet the turn.

Again, there are certainly circumstances where you want to bet the turn. If you intend to call a check-raise all-in and feel good about it or think that you can value bet the river if called on the turn, betting the turn might be best. And, as touched on above, in a true heads-up match, betting the turn might be correct. But, in this hand, we have to play the image that we've been given, and that image is tight. I think that, with a tight image, the best way to maximize value here against a seemingly-mediocre opponent is to check the turn.

Too tired to proofread, so point out any mistakes.

ML4L

Re: $25-$50 NL KJo in the bb
 

i wouldnt chose KJo as a hand to reraise

Re: First Attempt at Clarification
 

thanks, that was a good analysis of the hand. what was making me unsure about a turn bet was that i dont feel very good about how the river plays out. i think this came from a slightly different assesment of the villian. when paluka made the point that villian had been willing to fold to reraises from non shortstacks i took that to mean he was likely well aware of the perils of playing semi deep stacks out of position vs a tight re-raiser. pre-flop reraises, when uncommon in the game or from the reraiser, end up having such an oppressive impact on the post flop betting that i was left disliking the river situation. if this had just been a raised pot where villian called out of the blind or something i think i would agree completely with the check/turn line. also, if the villian is a little bad, which he may well be, i like checking the turn more as well. as it is i was a bit concerned with whether a turn check just gave the villian a free chance to beat us with a hand he would otherwise be unwilling to put any money in with and not give us a chance to fold out KK/QQ when he has those. giving the villian the chance to catch a winning hand is often a tradeoff im willing to make when it will induce value on the river but im a little skeptical about how much that applies here, largely because of how how i am assuming the pre-flop re-raise narrows the posters likely range of hands in the villians eyes.

despite all that im not sure that i actually disagree with you. i guess im just saying why i like a turn check less than i otherwise might even though it still might actually be best. i think my final decision probably hinges on a little better understanding of the villian. if he is a bit loose/bad then the check is good while when he is tighter whetever money your putting in serves you better on the turn.

Re: $25-$50 NL KJo in the bb
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
if it's a great card for villain to bluff c/r and we're not calling a c/r, why on earth are we betting?

[/ QUOTE ]

Anyone who wants to bet the turn here:

1) doesn't understand poker very well,
2) didn't take time to think the situation through,
3) is making some poor assumptions, or
4) some combination of 1, 2, and 3

ML4L

[/ QUOTE ]

fo sheezy my neezy...bet the river if he checks to you once again... at least then you may get a call from 88-TT or a weak jack... all of whihc will unlikely call your turn bet if that ace pops.

Results
 

I bet $1000 on the turn, and he folded. Normally I would have bet a bit more, but there had been no big pots at the table really and I thought a $1000 bet would seem significant based on the way the game was playing. I basically felt this was a blocking bet, I didn't want to face a pot sized bet on the river.

Re: First Attempt at Clarification
 

cwl:

I think villain is folding KK/QQ to a turn bet just about never. Or at least, close enough to never that a turn bet is -EV against those holdings.

Re: $25-$50 NL KJo in the bb
 

I might've checked the flop.....here's why:

basically my feeling is that after you've reraised preflop and been called, your hand strength (pair of jacks with king kicker) is irrelevant.....what I mean, is that when you bet the flop you may as well be bluffing because your hand beats nothing and if you're planning on calling a flop checkraise or put in any money on any other street it's purely to pick off a bluff.....so in my experience, the best way to do that is check the flop - it often induces two streets worth of barrels from aggro players.....it's true that the ace sucks on the turn because it is a scare card for both of you, but to me the number of times an ace hits the turn is totally outweighed by the bluff-catching value of when it doesn't......

now, it's possible that I'm confusing the nature of this villain and this game....so change a few things (i.e. - villain is actually the type to call value bets with a hand worse than a pair of jacks after being reraised preflop by a tight player, or villain never bluffs on the turn, or villain never bluff check-raises, etc.) and my above statements may be incorrect.....however, if I'm understanding this typical online villain correctly, I think a flop check is a viable option......

Re: $25-$50 NL KJo in the bb
 

I would think that in a blind on blind situation he would be willing to call the flop with quite a few hands that don't beat a pair of jacks. If this isn't true, I'm very confused and this is why I suck at NLHE. If he had a pocket pair there below jacks how should he play it? Does he either have to reraise preflop or fold if he doesn't make a set?

Re: $25-$50 NL KJo in the bb
 

It obviously depends on how you play postflop. But if you're a tough opponent and he's out of position, what you outline is essentially correct. It is just too easy for you to steal the pot in position since he can't take any heat. If he's short stacked and you're aggressive, that's one thing, but if you have decent stacks, he is better off folding when he's ahead in a small pot than he is playing a potentially large pot of position with a hand that can't even beat top pair.

FWIW, I think understanding this issue of pot control is the single largest hurdle facing limit players learning NL. There were a lot of good posts on this topic in what used to be SSNL in threads started by the poster who used to be GrunchCan (I think "The Grunch" now) who was making this transition.