Greatest Lay Down Ever
 

I am playing in the $540 NLHE tournament at the Wynn. I am sitting in the 4 seat (10 handed). I have been playing many hands (AKA Gus Hansen style), but those that I have shown down have always been winners.

We are in the 4th round, with blinds at $100-$200 with a $25 ante.

The individual in the 2 seat has been showing his hands and/or discussing his hands with the 3 seat. Often he whispers to the 3 seat what his hand is, and I over hear it at least 50% of the time. I have warned him once already that I have overheard him discussing hands.

The 2 seat is the BB. 3 Seat folds. I look down and find QQ. I raise to T600. While the rest of the table is in the process of folding, 2 seat clearly tells 3 seat in a whisper (I have 99, and I am about to outplay him) [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

2 seat calls. The pot contains T1550. Flop comes: Q93 rainbow. SWEET [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

(2 seat whispers to 3 seat, watch me get all his chips). 2 seat checks. I bet T1500. 2 seat flat calls.

The turn is a 9 [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]

2 seat checks. I check.

The river is a 3. 2 seat bets T5000.

I state, "the way you played this hand, you can only have quads." I muck QQs full face up. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

I play good.

Re: Greatest Lay Down Ever
 

High five.

Re: Greatest Lay Down Ever
 

How do you know he wasn't audibling? He could have had pocket 8s.

Re: Greatest Lay Down Ever
 

Gigabet? is that you? [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Re: Greatest Lay Down Ever
 

All-in on the flop.

Re: Greatest Lay Down Ever
 

I'm sorry, I didn't finish things. He showed his pocket 9's and the rest of the table discussed being able to lay down QQs full (second nut).

I didn't say another word, and just smiled.

Re: Greatest Lay Down Ever
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'm sorry, I didn't finish things. He showed his pocket 9's and the rest of the table discussed being able to lay down QQs full (second nut).

I didn't say another word, and just smiled.

[/ QUOTE ]

That guy is an absolute moron to be playing that buyin and to whisper his cards. That's the real moral of that story.

Re: Greatest Lay Down Ever
 

Actually, I think that is the worst play you can make. You know that you have him drawing completely dead, and you want to attempt to get as much money from him as possible.

While I will agree that it is few and far between anyone that could lay down middle set, the way I played it assured that I would make the maximum amount of money while taking virtually no risk ... after all, if the 9 does come, I can lay the hand down.

Re: Greatest Lay Down Ever
 

AMEN.

The best part is he was warned. The implication is that I can hear you. Why would you continue doing it, especially when you are trying to outplay me? [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

Re: Greatest Lay Down Ever
 

[ QUOTE ]
Actually, I think that is the worst play you can make. You know that you have him drawing completely dead

[/ QUOTE ]

Apparently he's not COMPLETELY dead,

Re: Greatest Lay Down Ever
 

[ QUOTE ]
All-in on the flop.

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Agreed. If you know he's got 2nd nuts on the flop, just push.
The case 9 coming off is much less likely then say a T or a J and if he's especially tight and/or deepstacked, you might not be able to get him all-in if one of those comes off; you probably would, but the possibility that you wouldn't is reason enough to push the flop.

Though this time it's fortunate you didn't do that. In any case, the guy is clearly dumb as a post, I hope you went on to bust him.

Re: Greatest Lay Down Ever
 

How great of a laydown is it if you HEARD him say he has 99? Had you not heard that it would have been the laydown of the century. But you heard it.

Re: Greatest Lay Down Ever
 

Sorry ...

Just thought the post would be funny, and everyone would understand that the title was said tongue in cheek.

Guess not every one got it. [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

Re: Greatest Lay Down Ever
 

I didnt get it right away, and even misread your post and didnt see you heard him, was really confused.

I liked the post.

Re: Greatest Lay Down Ever
 

i got it and enjoyed it

Re: Greatest Lay Down Ever
 

YOU KNOW ABOUT REJECTED CARTOONS?!?!

Re: Greatest Lay Down Ever
 

maybe i should stop reading while i'm at work and wait till i get home so i can catch the humor.

Re: Greatest Lay Down Ever
 

I am smart enough to know that I have much to learn about poker - both cash game and tournaments.

I am extremely puzzled, however, by the approach that both of you advocate ... that is pushing in on the flop.

I think we can both agree that it is EXTREMELY unlikely that someone with middle set on a rainbow flop will fold their hand. Therefore, I will agree that if you push all in on the flop, he will call more than 95% of the time.

If that is the case, he still has a 4.34% chance of winning the hand by the river.

In my approach, by betting the pot on the flop, a significant bet on the turn (if the 9 does not come), and by that time, all-in on the river (assuming the 9 does not come), I get the same amount of money, while mitigating my risk against the case 9 coming.

Even if the turn is a K, and the river is an A (the scariest two cards that could come for him, given my pre-flop raise), I still stipulate that he will be pot committed by then, and will call with his set of 9s.

It just seems to be that I eliminate virtually all of my risk by playing this way. The only exception would be if I truly felt that he would fold his set of 9s to an all-in bet. But even if he would, I think I am giving up a significant edge and opportunity to win significant tournament chips.

Just my two cents worth.

Re: Greatest Lay Down Ever
 

[ QUOTE ]

In my approach, by betting the pot on the flop, a significant bet on the turn (if the 9 does not come), and by that time, all-in on the river (assuming the 9 does not come), I get the same amount of money, while mitigating my risk against the case 9 coming.

Even if the turn is a K, and the river is an A (the scariest two cards that could come for him, given my pre-flop raise)

[/ QUOTE ]

The scariest board for him by the river be:
Q93TJ (with 3 cards of a given suit)?
And if that comes off, it would be hard to extract money from his set.

Re: Greatest Lay Down Ever
 

call and then get it in on the turn, who cares if a scare card comes

Re: Greatest Lay Down Ever
 

Agreed ... perhaps this is one complete board where he MAY lay down his hand. Of course, my bet on the river could be one such that he is almost forced to call.

Nevertheless, don't you think it is worth the risk of these two cards (or similar ones) coming runner runner, compared to the times it doesn't compared to the chance of the final 9 coming?

It just seems to me that balancing the risk vs reward has me coming out ahead.

Perhaps I am wrong. I guess what I would have to do is get out my simulator and run a few million hands and see what would happen.

Re: Greatest Lay Down Ever
 

[ QUOTE ]
call and then get it in on the turn, who cares if a scare card comes

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why wait? Just get it in on the flop. He's NOT folding, and you have him slaughtered. Another card can only be bad for you.

Re: Greatest Lay Down Ever
 

to stay alive. you will get the money in on turr, jsut peel the card and see if a 9 comes

Re: Greatest Lay Down Ever
 

One thing that I think you need to remember is that unlike a cash game, if you lose all of your chips in a tournament, you are out.

I think perhaps in a cash game, I would take your approach. In a tournament, however, it seems to me to be worth mitigating your risk so that you won't be knocked out of the tournament.

In the end, I think in most cases I would have one the same amount of chips without any risk.

As it turns out, the 9 on the turn allowed me to fold and remain in the tournament.

The good news is that very move allowed me to cash in the tournament. I realize that I shouldn't be results oriented, but it just seems to emphasize my point.

Re: Greatest Lay Down Ever
 

Of course pushing the flop is wrong. If you're one of the people talking about bad boards on the *river*, you're missing the point - if something like a J comes off and there are river cards that kill your action, just push the turn, instead.

Re: Greatest Lay Down Ever
 

PWNED!!! Awesome story.

I agree with Adanthar about the flop push, we know which cards(er, card) beats us, so we can fold when that card comes. And still get the chips in the middle when it doesn't.

Re: Greatest Lay Down Ever
 

How funny would this have been if the guy flipped up rags? Unlikely yes, but funny nonetheless..

I like the way you played it as well. I assume you'd push the turn if a potential action killer arrived, and there's no way he isn't calling.