Two Plus Two Older Archives

Two Plus Two Older Archives (http://archives2.twoplustwo.com/index.php)

- Small Stakes Shorthanded (http://archives2.twoplustwo.com/forumdisplay.php?f=20)

- - The Wall (http://archives2.twoplustwo.com/showthread.php?t=386382)

I actually stole this hand history from one of EvanJC's threads in here. I just wanted to get some discussion going on how to deal with the turn in these types of hands against aggressive opponents.

Let's say villain is either a LAGTAG type player or maybe just LAG or TAG. I don't know, I see it a lot from these types. Assume that we have a tight-aggressive image. Not weak-tight and not out of line.

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (6 max, 4 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is SB with 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
2 folds, Hero raises, BB calls.

Flop: (4 SB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, BB calls.

Turn: (3 BB) K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, BB raises.

"The Wall", I [censored] hate this move. If the villain is aggressive do you just check-call check-call? Or do you bet-call, check-call/fold?

If he's extremely laggy, you could check/call the turn and river. If he's tighter, bet/folding the turn is your better play since it will likely force him into raising or folding. If he calls, either bet or check/fold the river, depending on how weak the player is.

You have to bet the flop. I am unsure about following through on the turn though. I think you probably should do it. Once he raises, you have about 7 outs, so I think you can peel. It's close though, as occasionally your A outs are no good, or you don't collect bets from him on the river.

[ QUOTE ]
You have to bet the flop. I am unsure about following through on the turn though. I think you probably should do it. Once he raises, you have about 7 outs, so I think you can peel. It's close though, as occasionally your A outs are no good, or you don't collect bets from him on the river.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes, the flop bet is automatic. We're looking pretty good here and he'll peel with overs/tweeners a lot.

%%
I'd like to add to the thoughts in the original post.

I do see this move a lot from aggressive players, and I'm sure it's crap or a semi bluff (even overcard semibluff) too often to always let Villain take the pot when I don't improve. So I don't think it's a good idea to just be a good little boy and always fold with ace-high on the river or even fold our gutshot on the turn. On the other hand, the turn is difficult BECAUSE villain will nearly always** punish us with a better hand. Against this player a turn bet is probably -EV, and I suspect it is a big leak if we always fire a second barrel.

If I am so paranoid about being bluffed I guess I should just check-call the turn and river some of the time and show em and check-fold the river most of the time. When we check the turn though we basically announce we don't have a pair and villain can confidently bet the turn with just about any two. I am comfortable check-folding the river against a TAG or even a LAGTAG type but less so against lags/dumber/more relentless opponents because they have great followthrough on their bluffs.

Basically these spots suck because we think we may have fold equity and our first instinct is to semi-bluff the turn. But since we have something to go along with our bluff we usually have to call a turn raise which happens frequently, cancelling out the value from our fold equity.

Passive play out of position really sucks in HU situations though. HU is often a pissing contest with both sometimes pushing hard with nothing. There is a big edge to be gained in winning pots when both have exactly squat. Position and initiative are the two keys here.

I have not decided which line I like better. I hate poker.

**This has a lot to do with reads but I think most players tend to pop us on the turn in blind battles because they think we are f.o.s. and want to stick it to us real good to discourage further stealing.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You have to bet the flop. I am unsure about following through on the turn though. I think you probably should do it. Once he raises, you have about 7 outs, so I think you can peel. It's close though, as occasionally your A outs are no good, or you don't collect bets from him on the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

I certainly would not give 7 outs here. You have 4 outs to the idiot end of a straight (1 completes a 3-card flush) and 3 outs to TPNK (again 1 completes a 3-flush) when already facing some aggression. I usually fold here without much hesitation unless I have a specific read saying this guy is very prone to bluffing with air.

Edit: Slightly misread the board to realize its not quite the idiot end of the straight, but still only a 1 card low straight

[/ QUOTE ]
If we don't have 7 outs because we have the idiot end, then we have 34 outs (we're ahead and he has 10 outs).

I would consider out gutshot outs squeaky clean.

There is still the split and spade possibilities, but point taken.

fold to the turn raise.

I rarely c/c the whole way, it's so weak. If I have a good read or i'm against a maniac, i'll just bet, and call down when shown turn aggression. But I think you're behind here a lot.

I'd call the turn. Taking into account implied odds how many outs do we need to call, I'd say about 6. I think we can give 2 outs to the ace, he could be raising with any pair if he thinks hero will fire the turn UI. He could even be semibluffing.