How much of a difference does being suited make HU?
 

Disagreement on IRC.

TAG UTG raises. Do you call with KTs in the BB? Do you call with KTo? Is there much of a difference?

TAG button raises. Is there much of a difference between 76s or 76o?

Are there any hands you would defend with from the BB against a button raise, that are suited, that you wouldn't defend with if they were unsuited?

Does an UTG raise make being suited more important than a button raise?

Re: How much of a difference does being suited make HU?
 

Enough of a difference that AJs has better equity against a random hand than AKo. Does that answer your question?

Re: How much of a difference does being suited make HU?
 

When UTG raise and u defend in BB its not really a HU-match like when SB raises and u are sitting in BB. UTG normally got a great hand so u will normally be well paid when u hit your flush. Against SB raise a small pair will be enough more often. That said, against UTGraise its important to not be dominated. I prefer T9o instead of K5s. But against a stealraise I would think K5s works just as well, if not better (I will win unimproved more often).

I would defend against UTG raise with Axs but not below A7o if he got normal standards (say PFR 16%). I would defend with 54s but probably not 76o (well...).

Re: How much of a difference does being suited make HU?
 

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I would defend against UTG raise with Axs but not below A7o if he got normal standards (say PFR 16%). I would defend with 54s but probably not 76o (well...).

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I don't really understand the 54s defense from an UTG raise. Don't you want about 5-1 for you possibility to flop a flush draw or OPESD. you could pair a four or five, but that is not really all that desireable. What's your thoughts on this?

Re: How much of a difference does being suited make HU?
 

I think pairing a 4 or 5 isn't all that bad since utg will most likely show down his big aces. Not that it will be easy to play, but it does add some extra value to your hand which is connected and suited.

Re: How much of a difference does being suited make HU?
 

Ofcourse there is, you will make a flush more often, but maybe more important, will flop a draw you can play hard and maybe take it down unimproved, which would make suitedness more important vs later raises than early ones as it´s easier to bluff successfully I think.

There are tons of hands I defend suited that I fold offsuit against button opens.

Re: How much of a difference does being suited make HU?
 

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I don't really understand the 54s defense from an UTG raise. Don't you want about 5-1 for you possibility to flop a flush draw or OPESD. you could pair a four or five, but that is not really all that desireable. What's your thoughts on this?

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I can be more confident that a low flop misses an UTG raise and so I think it is often quite desirable fo flop a pair of 4's or 5's. I defend with any two suited against a raise from any position and the worst offsuit hands after over 200K hands appear to be worth almost exactly the same as folding--no better and no worse. The offsuit indifference point appears to be around "any two 9 or higher", although I vary my criteria on these more according to the position of the raiser than I do the suited hands. (I may fold JT to an UTG raise but call T8 versus a button raise).

Cartman

Re: How much of a difference does being suited make HU?
 

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I can be more confident that a low flop misses an UTG raise and so I think it is often quite desirable fo flop a pair of 4's or 5's.

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this is true, and this is a good scenario... usually. however, sometimes you will be up against a pp. you will also get draw out on somtimes with your weak made hand.

you will also pair some scary flops, which you will have you not collect very much when you win and you make some questionable payoffs/ folds.

just some considerations when playing a weakhand.

Re: How much of a difference does being suited make HU?
 

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How much of a difference does being suited make HU?

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A little bit. [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

It's a feel thing. You're probably better off giving examples of 76o vs 74s or KTo vs K8s, btw.

Re: How much of a difference does being suited make HU?
 

As Trix said. Its not so much the hot & cold percentages that makes a suited hand more valuable HU, but the extra semi-bluff opportunities.

And I think being suited is more valuable vs. a button raise since you're more likely to successfully semi-bluff a button raiser.

Re: How much of a difference does being suited make HU?
 

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I don't really understand the 54s defense from an UTG raise. Don't you want about 5-1 for you possibility to flop a flush draw or OPESD. you could pair a four or five, but that is not really all that desireable. What's your thoughts on this?

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Are u defending against UTGraise from BB with small pairs like 77-22? I guess u do? (at least 44 and up?)

Do u automatically give up if u dont hit a set on flop?

I guess not?

Small pairs are pretty ok against UTG raise because if flop is all rags (below T) u are ahead more often then not. With 1 high card its tricky and with 2 its good time to bet and fold if raised (or even checkfold, even if that is a bit weak).

Re: How much of a difference does being suited make HU?
 

I'm not a big fan of defending with hands like 22 and 33. Too hard to play postflop.

Re: How much of a difference does being suited make HU?
 

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Are u defending against UTGraise from BB with small pairs like 77-22? I guess u do? (at least 44 and up?)


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Typically i do defend 44+. Sometimes 22 and 33.

I think 44 is worth defending, while the possibility of drawing to a 4 is not as worthy of defending.

Re: How much of a difference does being suited make HU?
 

In your first post u wrote:

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you could pair a four or five, but that is not really all that desireable

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In next post:

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I think 44 is worth defending

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U also wrote:

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the possibility of drawing to a 4 is not as worthy of defending.

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We are not calling with 54s in BB because we are drawing for a 4. We are drawing for straight, flush, 4s or 5s.

Re: How much of a difference does being suited make HU?
 

Against a TAG UTG raise, the difference between 77 and 22 is negligable.

Re: How much of a difference does being suited make HU?
 

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Against a TAG UTG raise, the difference between 77 and 22 is negligable.

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Re: How much of a difference does being suited make HU?
 

you are right. pokerstove says it is about a 1% difference.

Re: How much of a difference does being suited make HU?
 

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Are u defending against UTGraise from BB with small pairs like 77-22? I guess u do? (at least 44 and up?)


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Typically i do defend 44+. Sometimes 22 and 33.

I think 44 is worth defending, while the possibility of drawing to a 4 is not as worthy of defending.

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What is better about 44 than 33 or 22 in this case? Its not like you are going to lose to a pair of 4´s ever when defending 22 in this spot. I think they are exactly the same here so it doesnt make sense to me to defend one of them but dump the others.

Re: How much of a difference does being suited make HU?
 

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Ofcourse there is, you will make a flush more often, but maybe more important, will flop a draw you can play hard and maybe take it down unimproved, which would make suitedness more important vs later raises than early ones as it´s easier to bluff successfully I think.

There are tons of hands I defend suited that I fold offsuit against button opens.

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I think the thread has gone off on somewhat of a tangent so I'll try to get it back on track.

TStone said you flop a flush draw 10% of the time (if it's wrong, blame him.) The semibluff is a powerful tool, but you'll only be able to use it 10% of the time. The lower bound of my defense is 76o and, for me, the only thing suitedness does is maybe add 65s and MAYBE 75s.

Re: How much of a difference does being suited make HU?
 

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In your first post u wrote:

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you could pair a four or five, but that is not really all that desireable

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In next post:

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I think 44 is worth defending

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U also wrote:

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the possibility of drawing to a 4 is not as worthy of defending.

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We are not calling with 54s in BB because we are drawing for a 4. We are drawing for straight, flush, 4s or 5s.

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I don't really see any dramatic inconsistencies in the statements that you quoted.

I'm basically saying that your implied odds on your flushdraw & openendedstraigtdraw alone are not there. If we both agree that to be true, then you are saying that drawing to the 4 or 5 swings the decision from a fold to a call. I am saying, while I could be wrong, that I do not believe that drawing to a 4 or 5 make this fold a call here. However, I do believe that a pair of fours pf is worth playing because it is ahead often enough.

Re: How much of a difference does being suited make HU?
 

I get about a 5% difference running offsuit versus suited hands:

<font class="small">Code:</font><hr /><pre>
461,582,364,672 games 0.300 secs 1,009,590,272 games/sec

equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
52.707186 % 50.570% 2.137% { A2s+, K2s+, Q2s+, J2s+, T2s+, 92s+, 82s+, 72s+, 62s+, 52s+, 42s+, 32s }
47.292814 % 45.156% 2.137% { A2o+, K2o+, Q2o+, J2o+, T2o+, 92o+, 82o+, 72o+, 62o+, 52o+, 42o+, 32o }
</pre><hr />

- Andrew

www.pokerstove.com

Re: How much of a difference does being suited make HU?
 

Yeah-- sorry I was responding to a 22 vs 77 thing. I agree that suitedness matters a lot more. It helps both in absolute equity as well as postflop play because you can semi-bluff flush draws and what not.

Re: How much of a difference does being suited make HU?
 

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I get about a 5% difference running offsuit versus suited hands:



461,582,364,672 games 0.300 secs 1,009,590,272 games/sec
<font class="small">Code:</font><hr /><pre>
equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
52.707186 % 50.570% 2.137% { A2s+, K2s+, Q2s+, J2s+, T2s+, 92s+, 82s+, 72s+, 62s+, 52s+, 42s+, 32s }
47.292814 % 45.156% 2.137% { A2o+, K2o+, Q2o+, J2o+, T2o+, 92o+, 82o+, 72o+, 62o+, 52o+, 42o+, 32o }
</pre><hr />

- Andrew

www.pokerstove.com

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Nice hardware! [img]/images/graemlins/ooo.gif[/img]

Re: How much of a difference does being suited make HU?
 

I defend more Kings, Queens, Jacks etc aswell.

As far as I reember it´s 8.1:1 to flop a flushdraw (might have been 9.1 though, which explains why tstone thinks it´s 10%).

Sometimes a 3flush will be enough to change a fold to a play aswell.

Re: How much of a difference does being suited make HU?
 

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461,582,364,672 games 0.300 secs 1,009,590,272 games/sec

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Nice hardware! [img]/images/graemlins/ooo.gif[/img]

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Actually, I've been working on the heads-up evaluator optimizations. It'll be included in the next release. Probably a couple of months away yet.

- Andrew

www.pokerstove.com

Re: How much of a difference does being suited make HU?
 

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Actually, I've been working on the heads-up evaluator optimizations. It'll be included in the next release. Probably a couple of months away yet.

- Andrew

www.pokerstove.com

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Wow. So you're the man behind PokerStove. Thank you!

Re: How much of a difference does being suited make HU?
 

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461,582,364,672 games 0.300 secs 1,009,590,272 games/sec

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Nice hardware! [img]/images/graemlins/ooo.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, I've been working on the heads-up evaluator optimizations. It'll be included in the next release. Probably a couple of months away yet.

- Andrew

www.pokerstove.com

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow, awesome.

Re: How much of a difference does being suited make HU?
 

i am quite clueless on what to defend my blinds with versus raises from various positions. i use a blanket defense of any two suited card, any pair, and any two cards 9 or higher from the big blind (from the sb i three bet w A7s, ATo, KTs, KJo, and 77+ versus a lone raiser) no matter from which position the raise came. can someone assist me as to the best way to defend my blinds from various positional raises in general terms versus a typical player (ie not being player read specific). thanks.

Re: How much of a difference does being suited make HU?
 

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Against a TAG UTG raise, the difference between 77 and 22 is negligable.

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Basically you're saying that 22 is worse because it's counterfeited more often?

Re: How much of a difference does being suited make HU?
 

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Against a TAG UTG raise, the difference between 77 and 22 is negligable.

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Basically you're saying that 22 is worse because it's counterfeited more often?

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Yeah, since the utg raiser is unlikely to have cards lower than a 7, the only differences are:
-counterfeiting
&amp;
-action when you hit a set

(I think this is what you were saying)

Re: How much of a difference does being suited make HU?
 

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Against a TAG UTG raise, the difference between 77 and 22 is negligable.

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Basically you're saying that 22 is worse because it's counterfeited more often?

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Yeah, since the utg raiser is unlikely to have cards lower than a 7, the only differences are:
-counterfeiting
&amp;
-action when you hit a set

(I think this is what you were saying)

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Thanks for the heads-up on the action when you get a set part.

Appreciated. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: How much of a difference does being suited make HU?
 

If you always fold hands like KT, you will be underdefending and this is exploitable by an opponent raising a wide range of hands to take your blinds. If you always call with hands like this, you will exploitable by people who simply wait for good hands and keep getting to play their AK against your KT and by people who make moves against you postflop knowing that you will too often have a non-pair non-ace hand that can't get to a showdown.

To be game theoretically balanced, you need to employ a mixed strategy and call with hands like this some percentage of the time rather than always calling or always folding. You want to play a hand like this in the ballpark of a quarter of the time. So, you use the cards as a randomizing factor. By usually playing a hand like KT when it is suited and folding it when it is not, you balance your play; your tendencies are not predictable since you are using an external source of entropy (the cards) rather than trying to randomize yourself by feel, which often leads to playing in patterns that your opponents may notice even if you don't; and if you are going to play a hand about a quarter of the time, you might as well play the best quarter, which are the suited ones.

This is the real signicance of suitedness HU, not the ability to make a flush, which is just a bonus.