Overcalls? X-post from HUSH
 

I thought this hand was interesting, but maybe it's routine.

5/10 6-max

I have 6 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] in the BB. CO limps, SB completes, I check.

Flop comes 5 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Checked around.

Turn: 5 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

Checked around

River: T [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

SB bets. I call hoping to get a call out of CO. CO raises. SB calls. I just call.

Thoughts? Anyone bet the turn in this 1.5 BB monster pot?

Re: Overcalls? X-post from HUSH
 

Nice hand.

1. I think going for overcalls on the river is correct. The LP opponent may call with very little here, hoping that everyone is very weak. If the EP player has been sandbagging a big hand, you don't put yourself in the position of facing a third river bet heads-up in a pot with basically no overlay.

2. I don't think there's much you can do once you get raised behind on the river. I'm sure you win here much of the time but I doubt your a huge favorite and getting four-bet would really suck.

3. I don't think taking a shot at this turn is worthwhile. Anyone who has picked up a draw like you will come along, as will many A-high, overcard, and weak paired hands. The pot is simply not big enough to attack. With 1.5 BB in, you'll have to take the pot down over 40% of the time to show an immediate profit, which means you will have to think EACH of your opponents will be folding over 63% of the time. (1)

Given, you also have the outs to add to the value from the bet. Of your 13 total outs, discounting slightly because the potential your spades may be dead or you may get raised on the turn and have to pay more, let's say your outs add up to about 22% equity (the equivalent of 11 pure outs). Then you'd need to get to 18% or so bluff equity to get there. (We're smoothing things over and not considering implied odds and so on and so forth, but the approximation is close). That still means you'd need to have both of your opponents EACH folding over 40% of the time, which is quite a bit (though perhaps realizable). If, though, either of your opponents is identifiable as a calling station, it may be very hard to reach the needed 18% number and a bet becomes a losing proposition.

Re: Overcalls? X-post from HUSH
 

I think the turn is close between betting and checking. It really depends on your reads, but it's true that both opponents will have to lay down quite often -- then again, if you get called, you have 9 outs to a flush and 4 outs to a straight, so it's a decent semi-bluff in any case. I think with 13 outs and fold equity, it's a close one...

Re: Overcalls? X-post from HUSH
 

Depending upon the other players in the hand, I would frequently take a shot at this on the flop. With no reads I would probably go for it, but if I knew one of my opponents to be good postflop, very aggressive, or very loose I would just check.

Turn: I would semi-bluff here. Yes the board is dry and the pot is small, but you have a ton of outs. Your gutshot draw, flush draw, and probably your 6 and 2 are good too. You might not win the pot outright on the turn very often, but I think the chance that you'll win combined with the chance that you'll river the best hand make this a bet.

River: I would probably raise, because IMO it's unlikely the button will have something most of the time. With any sort of a hand he probably would have bet by now.

I would have 3bet it if I went for the overcall and it was raised behind me.

Re: Overcalls? X-post from HUSH
 

bet the flop. bet the turn.

Re: Overcalls? X-post from HUSH
 

I think I bet the turn here, but the river is worrisome, because your opponent raised the pot when a flush card came. I rarely see this except with slowplayed full houses and bigger flushes.

That's unless he/she is a complete idiot, which is another possibility.

Re: Overcalls? X-post from HUSH
 

I would bet that flop for sure. Is that nuts?

the river I think is awesome

Re: Overcalls? X-post from HUSH
 

[ QUOTE ]
I would bet that flop for sure. Is that nuts?

the river I think is awesome

[/ QUOTE ]

I would bet the flop as well.

Re: Overcalls? X-post from HUSH
 

I probably wouldn't bet the flop. it's a very draw heavy board, and anyone with a pair or a draw is likely to call till the river. If you don't improve (by either hitting your 3 outer or your runner runner flush) you will lose this hand.

Re: Overcalls? X-post from HUSH
 

I don't agree that it's draw heavy. With the exception of clubs and 76 there don't seem to be any legit draws. Overcards might stick around, but I think you're unlikely to be called down by anything less than ace-high... and an ace probably would have raised preflop.

Re: Overcalls? X-post from HUSH
 

I feel like I get called by overs, clubs, gutshots and just total crap on a flop like this.

If the flop has one big card, and it's checked to me, I'm betting. If I'm heads-up, I'm usually betting. I just don't see picking it up often enough against two opponents here.

And betting pretty much means I have to bet the turn no matter what, or I give my opponent license to bluff on the river.

I do see merit to betting the turn after the flop was checked and I picked up a lot more outs. But, the pot is still miniscule, so I'm not really convinced yet.

Re: Overcalls? X-post from HUSH
 

It's very draw heavy, A4, A2, 69, 79, two clubs, 46..., any 8, probably any 5

all these hands will call for one bet.

Re: Overcalls? X-post from HUSH
 

[ QUOTE ]
I thought this hand was interesting, but maybe it's routine.

5/10 6-max

I have 6 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] in the BB. CO limps, SB completes, I check.

Flop comes 5 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Checked around.

Turn: 5 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

Checked around

River: T [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

SB bets. I call hoping to get a call out of CO. CO raises. SB calls. I just call.

Thoughts? Anyone bet the turn in this 1.5 BB monster pot?

[/ QUOTE ]

Just take the free river, betting isnt going to get everyone to call, and it wont get everyone to fold, so just suckout like you did and then put some chips in...

PS- The overcall here is nice

Re: Overcalls? X-post from HUSH
 

[ QUOTE ]
It's very draw heavy, A4, A2, 69, 79, two clubs, 46..., any 8, probably any 5

all these hands will call for one bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

Of these hands I find 96 unlikely. A4 & A2 probably would have raised before the flop (and the SB would have probably bet with these hands on the flop). I agree that any pair, especially 8s and 5s would stick around, but A) I don't consider them draws so that's why I didn't include them in my post, and B) if SB had either of those cards he probably would have bet the flop.

Maybe if your opponents (especially the SB) are very weak/tight they might have played ace-high or a pair this passively, but if they're weak/tight they're the perfect players to try to semi-bluff on the flop.

I agree that 97 will probably call, so I should add that one to my list. But that hand is very unlikely to show down unimproved, so even if that hand calls it's far from a catastrophe.

Re: Overcalls? X-post from HUSH
 

Why would 97 call and 96 not call?

Also, LPPs usually don't raise A4 and A2 preflop, and they also don't usually bet flops that they missed. They do what they're supposed to: call down with garbage. Except this time hero has major trash on the flop, and loses to even a random overcall.

Re: Overcalls? X-post from HUSH
 

[ QUOTE ]
Why would 97 call and 96 not call?

[/ QUOTE ]

Even though most players will throw away 97 (especially offsuit) many players will limp with hands like 97s in late position. But even bad players are unlikely to call preflop with big lick, and if they do play it because their juvenile sense of humor tells them it's funny, they'll usually raise with it.

[ QUOTE ]
Also, LPPs usually don't raise A4 and A2 preflop, and they also don't usually bet flops that they missed. They do what they're supposed to: call down with garbage.

[/ QUOTE ]

There was nothing in OP's original post about reads. With no reads how do you know your opponent will play like this. Perahps your experience is different than mine, but I certainly wouldn't categorize the typical 5/10 6 max. player as the sort of player who will open limp with 96 in lp.

[ QUOTE ]
Except this time hero has major trash on the flop,

[/ QUOTE ]

No he doesn't. He has a gutshot and a backdoor flush draw on a flop that is unlikely to have hit anybody who voluntarily entered the pot.

Re: Overcalls? X-post from HUSH
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Why would 97 call and 96 not call?

[/ QUOTE ]

Even though most players will throw away 97 (especially offsuit) many players will limp with hands like 97s in late position. But even bad players are unlikely to call preflop with big lick, and if they do play it because their juvenile sense of humor tells them it's funny, they'll usually raise with it.

[ QUOTE ]
Also, LPPs usually don't raise A4 and A2 preflop, and they also don't usually bet flops that they missed. They do what they're supposed to: call down with garbage.

[/ QUOTE ]

There was nothing in OP's original post about reads. With no reads how do you know your opponent will play like this. Perahps your experience is different than mine, but I certainly wouldn't categorize the typical 5/10 6 max. player as the sort of player who will open limp with 96 in lp.

[ QUOTE ]
Except this time hero has major trash on the flop,

[/ QUOTE ]

No he doesn't. He has a gutshot and a backdoor flush draw on a flop that is unlikely to have hit anybody who voluntarily entered the pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

gutshot+backdoor < 5 outs to win. betting is only for fold equity and i think fold equity is extremely low here with all the backdoor draws possible. that makes betting moronic.

you're right, there are no reads, so assuming a hand range is stupid.

and sb could have completed with any two. i complete with almost any 2 in this situation.

Re: Overcalls? X-post from HUSH
 

Results.

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is BB with 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, Button calls, SB completes, Hero checks.

Flop: (3 SB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero checks, Button checks.

Turn: (1.50 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero checks, Button checks.

River: (1.50 BB) T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, Hero calls, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises</font>, SB calls, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 7.50 BB

Results in white below:
SB has 9d Th (two pair, tens and fives).
Hero has 6s 2s (flush, ten high).
Button has Ah Td (two pair, tens and fives).
Outcome: Hero wins 7.50 BB.

Re: Overcalls? X-post from HUSH
 

I think a turn bet should be really standard here. You're definitely calling a bet, and oftentimes in tiny pots like these where the board is all low, whoever bets first takes the pot. If you happen to get raised, it sucks, but I really think a bet shows significant profit over a check here.

Re: Overcalls? X-post from HUSH
 

I bet flop and turn. I raise river--you have no reason to expect a call from CO, but you should get a call from SB.

Re: Overcalls? X-post from HUSH
 

Id go for overcalls on the river, and now that CO raised....I'd re-raise that river.

Re: Overcalls? X-post from HUSH
 

Saw results....yeah Id bet the flop and turn as well. AT, probably calls the flop, folds/calls the turn. At that point, it doesnt matter cause you are golden on the river.

But most of the time, u take it down on the turn. Still, Id re-raise that river.

Re: Overcalls? X-post from HUSH
 

Why go for overcalls? It's unlikely CO has anything worth calling.

Yes, I agree that he should reraise once it gets raised.

Re: Overcalls? X-post from HUSH
 

Okay, this will be my last response in this exchange because it seems our argument has gone from a logical one to an emotional one. That said...

[ QUOTE ]
gutshot+backdoor &lt; 5 outs to win. betting is only for fold equity and i think fold equity is extremely low here with all the backdoor draws possible. that makes betting moronic.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you have more than &lt;5 outs here. If no one has clubs, which will usually be the case, you have an extra out. Additionally, this is the sort of board that won't typically pair anybody, so your outs to a pair are probably good as well.

As far as backdoor draws go, the only other ones I see are runner runner spades and an unlikely runner runner straight. OP's chances of picking up a backdoor draw are probably better than his opponents, so I don't think there's any reason to fear this.

This makes for a very reasonable chance of catching the best hand if you don't take down the pot immediately.

[ QUOTE ]
you're right, there are no reads, so assuming a hand range is stupid.


[/ QUOTE ]

If that's what you got from my post, then either you misread it or I did a poor job of explaining myself. Putting your opponents on a range of hands was crucial to my argument. My range just happened to be different than yours.

[ QUOTE ]
and sb could have completed with any two. i complete with almost any 2 in this situation.




[/ QUOTE ]

Even if SB would complete with any 2 in this spot (FWIW, this is not what I would expect a typical player to do) this would still be a very unorthodox way of playing either ace high or a flopped pair. Flopped pairs and ace-high pose the most serious threat to OP's hand IMO, so even if SB would limp with any 2 cards here, I don't think it poses much of a problem.

I hope I haven't offended you. I'm just supplying my opinion on how to play a poker hand.

Good luck...