I struggle on the turn and river
 

BB in this hand is 22/15/2, which is about all the info I have on him

Party Poker 10/20 Hold'em (6 max, 5 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is MP with Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, SB calls, BB calls.

Flop: (6 SB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, SB calls, BB calls.

Turn: (4.50 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, Hero checks.

River: (4.50 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, Hero ???

On the turn I didnt know whether a free card helped me more or hurt me more, I didnt want to get confronted with a c/r (cuz I Didnt know what to do) so I checked.

River is a pretty easy bet no?

Re: I struggle on the turn and river
 

perfect so far. bet the river.

Re: I struggle on the turn and river
 

[ QUOTE ]
perfect so far. bet the river.

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Re: I struggle on the turn and river
 

I'd think if the BB had an ace he would have 3-bet preflop to your semi-steal attempt or check/raised the flop.

I bet the turn again to charge gutshots and flush draws, with the intent to check behind on the river. If you're check/raised on the turn I think you can call with the # of outs you've got.

My concern with checking the turn is that many of your outs put a 4-straight or 3 flush to the board. I'd hate to take a free card that just helps someone else more than me given I might be ahead at the turn anyway.

Re: I struggle on the turn and river
 

Turn is close. A lot of people will peel there with an ISD or two clubs, or a pair and weaker kicker, of course, and given that the 9 probably did not help them, betting there to get them to go away (or get them to call with the wrong pot-odds) is probably best. But yeah, if you get checkraised it pretty much sucks.

The other nice thing about checking the turn is you get to see what they do on the river -- do they take a shot at you with a busted draw or no? In this case, no, which is potentially useful information in and of itself.

Obvious bet on the river. I lean towards a bet on the turn but that's probably just being results-oriented. At 20/40 I know I pussy out on the turn, at 10/20 I'd be more likely to make the bet as I think I'm less likely to be checkraised/more likely I can trust the checkraise.

Re: I struggle on the turn and river
 

Turn is tough because getting C/R makes for a very difficult decision with only a stat read on one of the two players. I'd still be inclined to bet it, though. BB has stats that would seem to indicate that he might know what he is doing, and I think he'd be inclined to do something on the flop with a hand that is beating you (lead to possibly force out SB, or C/R both of you when it comes back to him). Suited hands are pretty popular blind defense hands, and a number of offsuit hands that call pre- have a gutshot or rarely an OESD (T9) on the flop, both hands that you're still ahead of on the turn. I think it's pretty close but I'd be inclined to bet to collect chips from the FD / SDs out there as well as possible worse Qs or Js. Not sure what I'd do on a C/R, but I'd probably see the river.

Re: I struggle on the turn and river
 

I'd also bet turn but dont have a big problem with checking. Most 22/15s in that game peel incorrectly and defend very liberally. And then there's the smalldonk. So I think you miss too much value by checking. After checking river is pretty easy bet.

Re: I struggle on the turn and river
 

Put me in the bet/call camp. I think you'd see more action if someone flopped an A. I'd also call the river UI if bet into again.

Re: I struggle on the turn and river
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'd also bet turn but dont have a big problem with checking. Most 22/15s in that game peel incorrectly and defend very liberally. And then there's the smalldonk. So I think you miss too much value by checking. After checking river is pretty easy bet.

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Why do 22/15/2 players seem to get very little respect by posters on this forum?

When I see a 22/15 I think "2+2'er", or "he's decent". I think that these 22/15's do not defend as liberally as most people on this forum - if they did they would have a higher VPIP.

Obviously they are not the 30/20 that this forum seems to think is the correct style of play, but I'm not a 30/20 either. I am not sure exactly what I am right now but I think I'm about a 24 (or 25)/19 (or maybe even 17).

Re: I struggle on the turn and river
 

i think calling a river bet after being checkraised on the turn is pretty bad

Re: I struggle on the turn and river
 

I was curious about this. You don't think you'll see a semi-bluff go for it one more time often enough? I may be overestimating the nuttiness of 10/20.

EDIT: against a 10/20 unknown. Forgot that we had a read that the villian was at least decent.

Re: I struggle on the turn and river
 

[ QUOTE ]
Why do 22/15/2 players seem to get very little respect by posters on this forum?

When I see a 22/15 I think "2+2'er", or "he's decent". I think that these 22/15's do not defend as liberally as most people on this forum - if they did they would have a higher VPIP.

Obviously they are not the 30/20 that this forum seems to think is the correct style of play, but I'm not a 30/20 either. I am not sure exactly what I am right now but I think I'm about a 24 (or 25)/19 (or maybe even 17).

[/ QUOTE ]

I dont get it either. It depends highly on the game texture and how many players. I am 23/17 with 5+ players but 29/21 overall. I know I am a little tight but I like to think I am not a fish atleast.

Re: I struggle on the turn and river
 

Lmn55d can speak for himself as to what he meant -- but I didn't intrpret it as a lack of respect for someone with 22/15 stats. As he stated, most "in that game peel incorrectly and defend liberally" -- I read this as most guys with stats like that are probably decent players, and in the 10/20 will call pre- getting 5:1 with a lot of hands against a CO steal, and will peel here closing the action getting 9:1, especially when the aggressor is possibly stealing. Perhaps "incorrectly" was a bit overstated, but as I said, I'll let Lmn55d comment.

On another point: I wouldn't be calling UI on the river if I got checkraised on the turn.

Re: I struggle on the turn and river
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'd also bet turn but dont have a big problem with checking. Most 22/15s in that game peel incorrectly and defend very liberally. And then there's the smalldonk. So I think you miss too much value by checking. After checking river is pretty easy bet.

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Re: I struggle on the turn and river
 

I meant that the average TAG in that game plays pretty poorly. Assuming that TAG, 2+2 stats are indicative of solid play can be a costly mistake in that game. I learned the hard way. My comment didn't refer to 22/15's specifically, but rather guys with "TAGlike 2+2" stats.

Re: I struggle on the turn and river
 

if i see a 22/15 in a 6max game im going to assume hes a wannabe taglike fish. if i come across 19/13/2s in a 10handed game those players are usually scary, so 22/15/2 is almost the same if its filtered for 7+ players on average which means that a 22/15/2 could be a dangerous player.

all you people with 30/20 stats arent playing 6 handed games on average. its more like 4 handed. i see people all proud of themselves because they are a 30/20 player and think thats better than being 27/18. check your average players per table.

im a 43/31/2.3 over my last 10k hands so hah.

(this post is a random rant and is not directed at anyone in this thread)

Re: I struggle on the turn and river
 

Since the board is so draw heavy I think you need to bet this turn. Also, given how coordinated the board is you're unlikely to get c/red by Ax, which will fear a bigger A or 2 pair, and since you didn't get 3-bet preflop it's reasonable to assume you're not up against AT+.

Bottom line: I think you're ahead and there isn't that much risk of getting raised, so bet.

Re: I struggle on the turn and river
 

[ QUOTE ]
if i see a 22/15 in a 6max game im going to assume hes a wannabe taglike fish. if i come across 19/13/2s in a 10handed game those players are usually scary, so 22/15/2 is almost the same if its filtered for 7+ players on average which means that a 22/15/2 could be a dangerous player.

all you people with 30/20 stats arent playing 6 handed games on average. its more like 4 handed. i see people all proud of themselves because they are a 30/20 player and think thats better than being 27/18. check your average players per table.

im a 43/31/2.3 over my last 10k hands so hah.

(this post is a random rant and is not directed at anyone in this thread)

[/ QUOTE ]

Though I know this is not directed at me, I thought I'd jump back in because I have pretty much no idea what this rant is about or how it relates to this hand or the comments in this thread. As far as I can tell, someone mentioned that most players in this game aren't terribly good post-flop (even those with TAG stats), someone else took this as a slam at players in this game with a certain stat profile, and now there's some sort of comparison to 6-max versus 10-handed and alleged 30/20 peen waving.

[img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

Maybe it will develop into something pointless but entertaining! :gets popcorn:

Re: I struggle on the turn and river
 

defintely bet the turn, fold to a c/r, and check the river IU

Re: I struggle on the turn and river
 

it was just a pointless rant that i thought would contribute