Very taboo. What do I do?
 

so i'm playing 5/10 limit at winstar casino in oklahoma and this hand comes up. i'm in the pot with a guy who i can tell is a solid player, and knows better than this. flop is A-high, i bet, he calls. turn is a blank, i bet again, and he folds. so he knows that i'm not just trying to push him around, and maybe to get him to fold a stronger hand later, i show an A, with my other card face down as i throw my cards in. before the dealer can take the cards and reshuffle, he grabs my face down card and turns it up(my hand was A6o, and i really didn't want him seeing my hand). well, i just kind of sit there with this befuddled look on my face, and ramble something, and everyone just kind of goes on with their business. i was so thrown off by what he did, i didn't even know what to say or do, and play pretty much just went on from there with not much being said. the dealer didn't even say anything. i didn't want to make a huge ordeal about it, as i was having a good time, and it was a pretty friendly table, but i don't think that play should be tolerated.
what do you think should be done in that situation?

mflo

Re: Very taboo. What do I do?
 

You know I have never seen that before. Another player absolutely should not be touching the cards you tossed. The dealer should be reprimanding the player for doing so. But since he didn't, and as you say the table was pretty friendly, I think you should let it slide for the time being.

Re: Very taboo. What do I do?
 

[ QUOTE ]
You know I have never seen that before. Another player absolutely should not be touching the cards you tossed. The dealer should be reprimanding the player for doing so. But since he didn't, and as you say the table was pretty friendly, I think you should let it slide for the time being.

[/ QUOTE ]

Word. Bad dealer.

Re: Very taboo. What do I do?
 

In some cardrooms, exposing one card entitles the players at the table to see both. As I understand it, its an anti-taunting rule.

Regardless, another player should NEVER expose your cards. If that is the rule, the dealer will either expose on request, or automatically, again depending on cardroom policy.

Re: Very taboo. What do I do?
 

Here is a radical idea, don't be a tool. Show the hand or muck the hand. Only an ass shows one card.

Yes the other guy was in the wrong and I would have screamed bloody murder but if you had better table manners, you wouldn't be in the situation in the first place.

Re: Very taboo. What do I do?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Show the hand or muck the hand. Only an ass shows one card.


[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with this. At Foxwoods, every showdown I've seen where the villian only attempts to show the ace has a rag for a kicker anyway.

Re: Very taboo. What do I do?
 

Here's a radical idea -- know what you're talking about before reprimanding others, nit. If OP wants to show that he had top pair, to cultivate an image that he's playing premium cards, that's his business. Some thinking players will try and train their opponents to respect their hands (even when they do not warrant respect [ie - A6o]) In no way is that being a 'tool'. It's using table image to maximize EV.


That being said, the player was definitely in the wrong for turning over the OP's other hole card. And the dealer was also in the wrong for not correcting the player. Should OP say anything? That's read dependant -- if you think it will stop the fun atmosphere of the table, I would hesitate to say anything. Next time, hold both cards together, with the Ace on bottom, and show the Ace. Then throw the cards in the muck yourself, so your opponent doesn't have the chance to turn over your other card. Just a thought.

Re: Very taboo. What do I do?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Here is a radical idea, don't be a tool. Show the hand or muck the hand. Only an ass shows one card.


[/ QUOTE ]

Not a tool and not an ass.

Absolutely nothing wrong with showing one card after a fold when it proves that you had the winning hand (other than giving away information, of course). Generally, it keeps the table (and the fish) happy and helps set up future moves when you want a player to fold.

It's a completely different story if someone is trying to influence your decision in a big pot by showing a card before you make a decision... I don't think that is a bad move either, but it could make you look like an ass.

Re: Very taboo. What do I do?
 

When I was playing at the Wynn, somebody attempted to only show one card, and the dealer explained that the camera has to see both. This wasn't enforced consistantly, and this was on a showndown hand, so it may be totally different.

That said- it seems like the less dickish move is to ask and let the dealer turn it up, and the even less dickish move is to not ask.

The best move on your part is to just not get worked up by assholes, as it's an unavoidable part of dealer with a random group of people engaged in a comptetative activity.

Re: Very taboo. What do I do?
 

2nd to what steamboatin said

opponent is solid player - he reads you correctly and your response is to confirm his suspicion? fix this leak before concerning yourself with table manners of the other players(and i dont buy the arguement you are using this to your advantage later in the session)

however - i would never touch another players cards regardless of the situation

Re: Very taboo. What do I do?
 

You're calling somebody a tool? I hope that's not your picture. LOL
[ QUOTE ]
Here is a radical idea, don't be a tool. Show the hand or muck the hand. Only an ass shows one card.

Yes the other guy was in the wrong and I would have screamed bloody murder but if you had better table manners, you wouldn't be in the situation in the first place.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: Very taboo. What do I do?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Here is a radical idea, don't be a tool. Show the hand or muck the hand. Only an ass shows one card.


[/ QUOTE ]

Steamboat is correct. If faced with the same situation, instead of turning over the other card, I would just say, "I knew an ass tool like you would be limping in with Ace-Rag."
[img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: Very taboo. What do I do?
 

I've seen this at the Bellagio too. The dealer said that to win the pot in a showdown, you have to show both cards. However, this situation was not at a showdown. The offending player pulled cards out of the muck.

I agree, bad form to touch the muck and a poor dealer to allow it to happen without mention. Not enough of a violation to get in the dealers face though, unless it happened again.

Re: Very taboo. What do I do?
 

[ QUOTE ]
When I was playing at the Wynn, somebody attempted to only show one card, and the dealer explained that the camera has to see both. This wasn't enforced consistantly, and this was on a showndown hand, so it may be totally different.

[/ QUOTE ]

It is totally different. In most cardrooms, hand winning at showdown has to be revealed. If the hand is won without showdown you can show whatever you want and noone has the right to ask to see another card.

Re: Very taboo. What do I do?
 

First, don't show the ace. It's not necessary, and those ppl. who just show one card are usually lame. Second, I'd ask the dealer, "Is the player allowed to go into the muck and retrieve cards to look at?" Play it from there.

Re: Very taboo. What do I do?
 

[ QUOTE ]
so i'm playing 5/10 limit at winstar casino in oklahoma and this hand comes up. i'm in the pot with a guy who i can tell is a solid player, and knows better than this. flop is A-high, i bet, he calls. turn is a blank, i bet again, and he folds. so he knows that i'm not just trying to push him around, and maybe to get him to fold a stronger hand later, i show an A, with my other card face down as i throw my cards in. before the dealer can take the cards and reshuffle, he grabs my face down card and turns it up(my hand was A6o, and i really didn't want him seeing my hand). well, i just kind of sit there with this befuddled look on my face, and ramble something, and everyone just kind of goes on with their business. i was so thrown off by what he did, i didn't even know what to say or do, and play pretty much just went on from there with not much being said. the dealer didn't even say anything. i didn't want to make a huge ordeal about it, as i was having a good time, and it was a pretty friendly table, but i don't think that play should be tolerated.
what do you think should be done in that situation?

mflo

[/ QUOTE ]

1 - I don't know why you're turning over a card in a 5/10 game. But if you feel the need to do it, then its fine and turning over just one is fine as well. Ignore the "you're a tool" comments.

2 - some card rooms have a "show one card, show both" rule. make sure you're aware of this if you want to show just one card.

3 - villain is so incredibly in the wrong its not even funny. never ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever touch another players cards.

4 - story to follow regarding a similar situation. If you don't care about the story, then this post is done, if you want the story, here you go.

Playing 4/8 Kill and its a fantastic wonderful gift from the poker gods table. Everyone is laughing and flinging chips and I'm getting enough good cards that I don't seem like a total rock and we're all having a merry time. New guy sits down and is a little "rough around the edges." But he's trying to join the festivities. He raises from late position and somewhat quietly announces "I have to, pocket Kings" loud enough for half the table to hear. Flop is K high. He bets and the little old lady to my left (who is just a chip spewing sweetheart) looks at him. He says again "I just made top set, you should fold." She folds. He shows his cards to the fat lady to his left. And then starts to muck them. Little old lady was in seat 10 and she reaches out and intercepts the cards on the way to the muck. As she's starting to flip them up the rough guy reaches out and grabs her hand. He does it so quickly that it looked like he was slapping her (he wasn't). Little old lady almost starts to cry. The dealer is dumbfounded because it happened so fast. The guy and the lady start yelling at each other, the dealer calls the floor and while the floor is on his way over the lady in seat 1 (who just happens to be the daughter of the old lady in seat 10) joins the argument "you don't ever hit a woman. You just hit my F-in mom. I'm going to f-in kill you!" Before the floor can get there the old lady has a few tears going but is quiet and now the rough guy and the lady in seat 1 are discussing meeting in the parking lot for a brawl. I have NEVER seen anything like it.
They finally settle things down.
The old lady gets a warning about grabbing other peoples cards. the rough guy gets a seat at a new table and the lady in seat one is asked to take a 10 minute break to cool down.
From my perspective, the worst part is that it totally ruined the vibe of the table. It never was quite the same chip spewing party the rest of the night. so sad.

FishNChips

Re: Very taboo. What do I do?
 

[ QUOTE ]

4 - story to follow regarding a similar situation.

[/ QUOTE ]

You do realize that the entire table had the right (in many/most casinos) to see his hand?

Re: Very taboo. What do I do?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

4 - story to follow regarding a similar situation.

[/ QUOTE ]

You do realize that the entire table had the right (in many/most casinos) to see his hand?

[/ QUOTE ]

But not the right to grab the cards. You ask the dealer to expose them. Everyone seems to have been wrong in this woeful tale.

Re: Very taboo. What do I do?
 

[ QUOTE ]
2nd to what steamboatin said

opponent is solid player - he reads you correctly and your response is to confirm his suspicion? fix this leak before concerning yourself with table manners of the other players(and i dont buy the arguement you are using this to your advantage later in the session)

however - i would never touch another players cards regardless of the situation

[/ QUOTE ]

i absolutely WAS using this play to my advantage.

Re: Very taboo. What do I do?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Here is a radical idea, don't be a tool. Show the hand or muck the hand. Only an ass shows one card.


[/ QUOTE ]

Steamboat is correct. If faced with the same situation, instead of turning over the other card, I would just say, "I knew an ass tool like you would be limping in with Ace-Rag."
[img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

it's not like i limped in UTG. give me a break.

Re: Very taboo. What do I do?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

4 - story to follow regarding a similar situation.

[/ QUOTE ]

You do realize that the entire table had the right (in many/most casinos) to see his hand?

[/ QUOTE ]

But not the right to grab the cards. You ask the dealer to expose them. Everyone seems to have been wrong in this woeful tale.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree totally. But most dealers would just muck them and ignore a request to see them. A good dealer, I believe, would expose them on his own, telling the player, "Sir, if you show one player, you must show all."

Re: Very taboo. What do I do?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

4 - story to follow regarding a similar situation.

[/ QUOTE ]

You do realize that the entire table had the right (in many/most casinos) to see his hand?

[/ QUOTE ]

But not the right to grab the cards. You ask the dealer to expose them. Everyone seems to have been wrong in this woeful tale.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree totally. But most dealers would just muck them and ignore a request to see them. A good dealer, I believe, would expose them on his own, telling the player, "Sir, if you show one player, you must show all."

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, everyone had the right to see the cards. I DO understand that.
No, she didn't have the right to grab them anyhow. Totally crossed the line.

I'm curious what others have to say about your claim that a "good dealer would show them and inform the player of the show one show all rule." My limited experience is that this rule is enforced only if someone else asks to see the cards.

Everyone at the table was wrong.

FishNChips

Re: Very taboo. What do I do?
 

You call the floor before your second card even hits the table as soon as he grabs it. That kind of bullcrap is NOT to be tolerated, friendly game or not. Last guy who tried that crap in my game was JIMMY HOFFA.

Not only do you call the floor and INSIST on some sort of "action" (which will probably be just a warning, but still you INSIST on a "ruling"), but you make it INCREDIBLY FRIGGIN' CLEAR that the next time that happens you WON'T "be so nice about it." That crap just don't fly PUNK, AND LET'S NOT FORGET IT NEXT TIME JERKOFF....

al

Re: Very taboo. What do I do?
 

In a showdown, both cards must be shown faceup on the table to have ANY claim to the pot. This is so someone can't conceal that they have a fouled hand (like A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]). This has nothing to do with the OP however...in the event of an uncalled bet, the winner can choose to not show, show both or show one if he'd like. If house rules specify that someone who was uncalled on the river must show both cards if they show one then, IMHO, those house rules blow.

Jeff

Re: Very taboo. What do I do?
 

[ QUOTE ]
But most dealers would just muck them and ignore a request to see them. A good dealer, I believe, would expose them on his own, telling the player, "Sir, if you show one player, you must show all."

[/ QUOTE ]

No, they wouldn't. Correct me if I'm mistaken, but the gentleman made a bet that was uncalled and chose to show one card. In no way does that entitle someone to see his other card. This is FOR SURE not the rule in Atlantic City cardrooms and I don't believe it is common to have a show one, show both rule in the event of someone winning with an uncalled bet. Places that have this rule shouldn't, imo.

Jeff

Re: Very taboo. What do I do?
 

Stop showing people a card?

Re: Very taboo. What do I do?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
But most dealers would just muck them and ignore a request to see them. A good dealer, I believe, would expose them on his own, telling the player, "Sir, if you show one player, you must show all."

[/ QUOTE ]

No, they wouldn't. Correct me if I'm mistaken, but the gentleman made a bet that was uncalled and chose to show one card. In no way does that entitle someone to see his other card. This is FOR SURE not the rule in Atlantic City cardrooms and I don't believe it is common to have a show one, show both rule in the event of someone winning with an uncalled bet. Places that have this rule shouldn't, imo.

Jeff

[/ QUOTE ]

Trace back and you will see I am talking about a different story, where:

He shows his cards to the fat lady to his left.

and that I am talking about the nearly universal "Show one player, show all players" rule, not "Show one card, show both cards".

Re: Very taboo. What do I do?
 

My bad, sorry about that. Back to work now. [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

Jeff

Re: Very taboo. What do I do?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

4 - story to follow regarding a similar situation.

[/ QUOTE ]

You do realize that the entire table had the right (in many/most casinos) to see his hand?

[/ QUOTE ]

But not the right to grab the cards. You ask the dealer to expose them. Everyone seems to have been wrong in this woeful tale.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree totally. But most dealers would just muck them and ignore a request to see them. A good dealer, I believe, would expose them on his own, telling the player, "Sir, if you show one player, you must show all."

[/ QUOTE ]

No way should a dealer do this. If a player asks they are entitled to see them, but that does not mean a dealer should show them with no request being made.

Re: Very taboo. What do I do?
 

[ QUOTE ]
You're calling somebody a tool? I hope that's not your picture. LOL


[/ QUOTE ]

It is absolutely my picture and this reply confirms that my read on you is correct.

Tool Tactic #1 be an ass and only show one card.
Tool Tactic #2 when WRONG make a personal attack against the other party.

Yes, I know they show one card on TV but that doesn't make it good manners. I bet you have sunglasses and a hoodie and your next post will probably mention my weight or that I wear eyeglasses.

Re: Very taboo. What do I do?
 

For what it's worth, James McManus in Positively Fifth Street mentions someone doing the same in one of the 2003 (?) WSOP tournaments. It was viewed as a serious breach of both etiquette and rules, and I got the impression the Horseshoe dealers and management took it seriously and didn't let it happen again.

It's not worth killing the atmosphere of a good game, but I would certainly point it out publicly to the dealer, then quietly mention it to the floor if the dealer failed to do his or her job (as seems to be the case).

Re: Very taboo. What do I do?
 

[ QUOTE ]
For what it's worth, James McManus in Positively Fifth Street mentions someone doing the same in one of the 2003 (?) WSOP tournaments.

[/ QUOTE ]

Annie Duke, as a matter of fact.

Re: Very taboo. What do I do?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Tool Tactic #1 be an ass and only show one card.


[/ QUOTE ]

Why is it wrong to show one card after someone folds to a bet? Typically, someone shows that they had top pair. Many folders see this as a favor -- proving that they made the right decision. Giving partial information often keeps the table friendly while also helping the player showing his card by earning him respect in later hands.

SB, Why don't you explain yourself?

Re: Very taboo. What do I do?
 

I thought it was Annie, but then I figured my memory might just be automatically linking her with something so brazen. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Of course Annie's memorable TV hand with Phil Hellmuth (what was that, anyway? I forget) where she showed only the bottom of her two pair would be less dramatic had Phil just reached his hand into the muck and looked at her other card. I generally adore and admire Annie, but jeez... even Hellmuth doesn't stoop that low.

Post deleted by Mat Sklansky
 

Re: Very taboo. What do I do?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Dealer did the correct thing here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Consider this hypothetical brick-and-mortar sequence:

<ul type="square">[*]AKQJ10 shows down A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 5 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], stating, "I have the nuts."
[*]Opponent mucks hand.
[*]AKQJ10 reaches into the middle of the table, pulls the pot to him, and starts stacking.
[*]Dealer says, "Post your blinds please" and deals the next hand.[/list]
Am I entitled to the pot? Is the dealer acting responsibly to let me pull it?

Also I missed whether the OP mentioned the house rules there, but keep in mind that house rules in Tunica don't necessary apply in every room. I've never known Foxwoods to enforce showing both cards, and I don't even understand the rationale for such a rule.

Re: Very taboo. What do I do?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Here is a radical idea, don't be a tool. Show the hand or muck the hand. Only an ass shows one card.

[/ QUOTE ]
You are so wrong here it's not even funny. This is done all the time at mid and high limits B&amp;M and there's absolutely nothing wrong with it.

GoT

Re: Very taboo. What do I do?
 

[ QUOTE ]
This is done all the time at mid and high limits B&amp;M

[/ QUOTE ]

A lot of clowns play mid and high limit B&amp;M.
[img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

Re: Very taboo. What do I do?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You're calling somebody a tool? I hope that's not your picture. LOL


[/ QUOTE ]

It is absolutely my picture and this reply confirms that my read on you is correct.

Tool Tactic #1 be an ass and only show one card.
Tool Tactic #2 when WRONG make a personal attack against the other party.

Yes, I know they show one card on TV but that doesn't make it good manners. I bet you have sunglasses and a hoodie and your next post will probably mention my weight or that I wear eyeglasses.

[/ QUOTE ]

I still don't think you've confirmed why showing one card is being a 'tool'...many people see it as a courtesy to be shown that they were not bluffed out of the hand (as the OP had top pair). Since this was 5/10, I doubt opponent was folding an ace if they had one, making OP's hand good. If anything, he's doing him the courtesy of showing opponent that he made the right play, which can be used later when you want to take a pot from him (or anyone else) once you've established a tight reputation. Nothing done here makes the original poster a tool.

You clearly need to play more live poker if this is your reaction to someone showing top pair after a no-call. Either that, or take the stick out of your ass. Nit.

Re: Very taboo. What do I do?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Nit.

[/ QUOTE ]