2 5/10 NL 6 max hands, I\'m turning into a LAG
 

Sorry guys, I don't know if these are even that interesting, BUT here they are. First hand me and the SB have been going at it like mad. Limp reraise, 3 bet pf, 3 bet air bluffs, stuff like that. Villian is probably a winning player of stats at 28/11 and i'm playing a 22/14. There is BAD BLOOD between us. What do you guys think?


Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ Hero (6 max, 3 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Button ($1358)
SB ($1237.50)
Hero ($1049)

Preflop: Hero is BB with T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. SB posts a blind of $5.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, SB (poster) completes, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $30</font>, SB calls $30.

Flop: ($80) 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets $100</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $400</font>, SB calls $1097.50 (All-In), Hero calls $609 (All-In).

Turn: ($2286.50) 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players, 2 all-in)</font>

River: ($2286.50) A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players, 2 all-in)</font>

Final Pot: $2286.50

2nd hand: Me and villian have been going at it again. I've called a triple bet bluff by him, also he has caught one of my missed flush river bluffs. He hasn't been ck raising me or anyone that often. The BB is a complete idiot. His hand range is any 2 cards above T, any pocket pair, any Axs. I think he calls my c-bet with any pp and any 9 or 7. He folds everything else.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (6 max, 5 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Hero ($1154)
SB ($338)
BB ($551)
UTG ($2110.50)
MP ($1150)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. SB posts a blind of $5.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP raises to $35</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $115</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, BB calls $105, MP calls $80.

Flop: ($350) 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
BB checks, MP checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $350</font>, BB folds, MP calls $1035 (All-In), Hero calls $685.

Turn: ($2420) 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players, 1 all-in)</font>

River: ($2420) 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players, 1 all-in)</font>

Final Pot: $2420

Re: 2 5/10 NL 6 max hands, I\'m turning into a LAG
 

Call it quits for the day

Re: 2 5/10 NL 6 max hands, I\'m turning into a LAG
 

[ QUOTE ]
Call it quits for the day

[/ QUOTE ]

How does that contribute anything or add anything to this post, please don't respond to my posts in the future. If you don't understand these hands, just move on and go read medium stakes.

Also dropping 2 or 3K in 30 minutes at 5/10 6 max happens all the time, as long as it doesn't tilt you and you keep playing your "A" game, why stop when it's +EV and i have a good image? (yes I rather be viewed as a "gambler" than as a good solid player)

Re: 2 5/10 NL 6 max hands, I\'m turning into a LAG
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Call it quits for the day

[/ QUOTE ]

How does that contribute anything or add anything to this post, please don't respond to my posts in the future. If you don't understand these hands, just move on and go read medium stakes.

Also dropping 2 or 3K in 30 minutes at 5/10 6 max happens all the time, as long as it doesn't tilt you and you keep playing your "A" game, why stop when it's +EV and i have a good image? (yes I rather be viewed as a "gambler" than as a good solid player)

[/ QUOTE ]

What was the purpose of posting these hands If you think its +EV? Just to show that you are a LAG?

Hand # 1: You have a good draw. I am not sure If you are getting the odds to call the rest of the money.

Hand # 2: You could be drawing dead for all you know.

Lets not go into how much I can drop in 30 minutes but I would defnitely find better spots to get my money in.

Re: 2 5/10 NL 6 max hands, I\'m turning into a LAG
 

Hand 1: I don't know... When he overbets the flop, I'm going to assume he's going to keep pressure on, so I just fold there. Is this weak? Raising just seems like a spew unless you know he'll overbet with a nominal holding and will fold regularly to a raise.

Edit: If villain bet 40-60 I'm raising. 60-80 I'm calling (sometimes raising).

Hand 2: ??? Did you see that the BB called your re-raise??? Take the free card. I don't bet this flop. If I do bet, I don't think I'm betting either because then I have to call an all in with a 8 outs; when he pushes there's no way your T is good. I like a bet of 225-275 here, and I'm not looking at the numbers but if you get check raised you can then fold safely.

Results
 

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 1: I don't know... When he overbets the flop, I'm going to assume he's going to keep pressure on, so I just fold there. Is this weak? Raising just seems like a spew unless you know he'll overbet with a nominal holding and will fold regularly to a raise.

Hand 2: ??? Did you see that the BB called your re-raise??? Take the free card. I don't bet this flop. If I do bet, I don't think I'm betting either because then I have to call an all in with a 8 outs; when he pushes there's no way your T is good. I like a bet of 225-275 here, and I'm not looking at the numbers but if you get check raised you can then fold safely.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was looking for what he said.

I was curious people's views when they get bet at overpot.

On hand 2 I was curious about the bet size. If I should A.) take the free card
b.) bet pot call all in
c.) bet smaller fold to ck raise

I'm posting results early cause it's my buddies 21st and I won't be back till after christmas (maybe)

Hand 1.) he had 78o for bottom 2 pair.

Hand 2.) he had 88 so my T and oesd were both live.

Re: Results
 

If hes the type of player to be going all in on the flop with mediocre holdings against you then why are you pushing straight draws? it isnt going to win much, you have little to no fold equity and your not ahead. I guess your doing it for image?

Re: 2 5/10 NL 6 max hands, I\'m turning into a LAG
 

Hi Rika,

WTF? Presumably he was also playing like a goddamn maniac, so you don't figure to be crushed in either hand. But, I think you are crushed in the first one, and are drawing only to your straight outs. Why? Because he bet 100 into an 80 dollar pot, into the pf raiser, and a bet one dollar over the pot size tends to be 2 pair+. Alternatively, he could have T9, in which case your money is in bad.

Hand 2 you are nuts for making it 115 with T8s and then potting. You obviously have to call a push if he raises your pot bet, so you should be checking, or betting a smaller amount, or pushing, in that order. There are 2 other guys in this hand who called 115, and that board ain't scary to them.

Re: 2 5/10 NL 6 max hands, I\'m turning into a LAG
 

I meant to say "If I bet I'm not potting." Oy.

Re: 2 5/10 NL 6 max hands, I\'m turning into a LAG
 

problem with these hands is that..at best you are getting about even money for your draw, and at worst..you are drawing thin

Re: 2 5/10 NL 6 max hands, I\'m turning into a LAG
 

the raise amount in hand 1 is awkward as hell

be aware of stack sizes with these bluffs, you dont need to get pot stuck with a weak draw, its almost better to have NO hand when bluffing, then you dont care if you have odds or not, if you get reraised its a muck

calling it off with draws is hopeless poker

Re: 2 5/10 NL 6 max hands, I\'m turning into a LAG
 

I have no problem playing a little crazy and gambling it up with my first buy in or two. If my plays are working then I build my stack early, if not then I rebuy and will get paid off with hands that I might not have before. Or I keep losing and go on tilt.

Re: 2 5/10 NL 6 max hands, I\'m turning into a LAG
 

[ QUOTE ]
its almost better to have NO hand when bluffing

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, semi bluffing totally sucks. I mean I hate when I get called and hit.

It's the raise amount that stinks here, nothing else. And hero should only do this if he honestly thinks he has a good chance of taking it down, and only if he's beeing paying attention to bet sizes.

Re: 2 5/10 NL 6 max hands, I\'m turning into a LAG
 

[ QUOTE ]
I have no problem playing a little crazy and gambling it up with my first buy in or two. If my plays are working then I build my stack early, if not then I rebuy and will get paid off with hands that I might not have before. Or I keep losing and go on tilt.

[/ QUOTE ]

What's ur pokersite s/n?

Re: 2 5/10 NL 6 max hands, I\'m turning into a LAG
 

Isn't it likely that on hand 1 he expects action so why give it to him with a hand like that?

Re: 2 5/10 NL 6 max hands, I\'m turning into a LAG
 

[ QUOTE ]
Hi Rika,

WTF? Presumably he was also playing like a goddamn maniac, so you don't figure to be crushed in either hand. But, I think you are crushed in the first one, and are drawing only to your straight outs. Why? Because he bet 100 into an 80 dollar pot, into the pf raiser, and a bet one dollar over the pot size tends to be 2 pair+. Alternatively, he could have T9, in which case your money is in bad.

Hand 2 you are nuts for making it 115 with T8s and then potting. You obviously have to call a push if he raises your pot bet, so you should be checking, or betting a smaller amount, or pushing, in that order. There are 2 other guys in this hand who called 115, and that board ain't scary to them.

[/ QUOTE ]

I love your replies.

All, I have one question:
re: hand 2, is checking still the best option if it was HU?
If you do check, are you planning to raise the turn a % of the time (assuming villain bets into you)?
My default if it was heads up would be follow it by a cbet.
ty,
f

Re: 2 5/10 NL 6 max hands, I\'m turning into a LAG
 

Did you even READ the Ciaffonne book?

He directly states this concept. Doesn't even coyly hint at hit, literally spells it out.

gimminyfuckingchristmas

Re: 2 5/10 NL 6 max hands, I\'m turning into a LAG
 

Are you saying if you're going to bluff at a pot you would rather NOT have outs than have them?

Rethink that for yourself.

Listen, the raise amount was bad because it causes hero to have to call. But saying that if you're going to bluff it's better to have no outs at all is ridiculous.

C&amp;R talk a LOT about making big moves with big draws, and the QT hand counts. Unfortunately, with the size of the pot a push just wouldn't make much sense. Villain perhaps made the worst move because he's commiting so much of his stack with a hand that probably has a lot of outs.

Why do you keep insisting that I, A. Have not read the book, or B. Did not understand it?

I don't know how much respect people gave to your posts, but you'll surely be losing any you had from this point on.

Re: 2 5/10 NL 6 max hands, I\'m turning into a LAG
 

Munkster-

The problem with making a continuation bet is that you'll be faced with a cr on this board very often. Given that BB called a RR, and MP is playing "Laggy" yet checked the flop, indicates there's a very good chance you'll be played back at; this board isn't very scary to JJ-AA, and since villain had been playing very loose they will be less inclined to give him credit for a big hand.

If it was heads up this hand would be completely different. Still, a pot bet here is terrible because it commits hero to calling a cr.

2/3 pot bet shows a fine amount of strength without committing as much of his stack (if heads up).

The great thing about checking through this flop, is that if you hit, no one can give you credit for your hand and you can still break QQ-AA (JJ just filled up).

Re: 2 5/10 NL 6 max hands, I\'m turning into a LAG
 

ill go ahead and spell it out also so that you wont mislead any innocent bystanders who read your terrible analysis

semibluffing is great if the stack sizes allow for it, obviously its nice to have outs to hit if you are called, this is about the most obvious thing i have ever had someone try to argue with me about on here

what youre missing is IF the stack sizes are such that you WOULD be pot committed in raising a poor draw, ie getting 2-1 or better with an 8/9 outer, it is in fact better to have total air, thus you do not have to worry about the unhappy situation in which you call your stack off possibly drawing very very slim

this is in the book, anyone who carefully read it would know this

as you have been making posts to exclusively discuss the book it is fairly ridiculous youre unaware of this

if you continue to be obstinate i will likely fetch the book from my friend that is borrowing it, quote directly, and probably be very very brutal about it

btw you yourself say "a pot bet here is terrible because it commits hero to calling a cr"

if hero had air the pot bet would be highly superior, and it would be advantageous in that you would BE able to make that full pot bluff by having air, as its easy to take down the pot in that manner, as long as you arent committed with a draw

of course in general i would much rather be semibluffing than completely bluffing, i dont even really consider the semibluffing i do on a regular basis to BE bluffing, i often have the best hand

bluffing is something very different than semibluffing, but something the two concepts hold in common is that you shouldnt be calling off money while doing them, you should almost always be the final aggressor, as what makes the plays profitable is fold equity, fold equity, fold equity

btw what did tommy say?

Re: 2 5/10 NL 6 max hands, I\'m turning into a LAG
 

[ QUOTE ]
what youre missing is IF the stack sizes are such that you WOULD be pot committed in raising a poor draw, ie getting 2-1 or better with an 8/9 outer, it is in fact better to have total air, thus you do not have to worry about the unhappy situation in which you call your stack off possibly drawing very very slim

[/ QUOTE ]

The stack sizes are not thus in the QT hand. He can raise here without committing himself. He WOULDN'T be committing himself if he raised to 275. He WOULDN'T be committing himself if he bet 2/3 pot with the T8s hand.

The idea that when you "bluff" on the flop you should bluff with absolutely nothing is silly, and is more psychological than anything. Some people have a hard time laying down draws getting 1.5-1 when it's 2-1 to hit. If that's a problem, then yes, bluff with nothing.

The fact is if you think you can take the pot down and you have a strong draw, then you should absolutely play aggressively. If there's a good chance hero will be played back at (both of these hands indicate this) then of course hero shouldn't try bluffing OR semi-bluffing. He should take the free card with a hand that has outs and just ditch the one that has none.

It's funny that you are trying so hard to make me look foolish, repeating over and over how I have not read the book. I have read the book. But it is not gospel.

[ QUOTE ]
if hero had air the pot bet would be highly superior, and it would be advantageous in that you would BE able to make that full pot bluff by having air, as its easy to take down the pot in that manner, as long as you arent committed with a draw

[/ QUOTE ]

It would only be superior if the hero thought he had a much better chance of taking it down with a pot bet, but in these hands that is just not true. Unless hero has been making clear what his bet sizes indicate, whether he bets 250 or 350 into a pot of 350 isn't going to change the fact that AK is folding and AA is pushing.

Do you disagree with this?

And the idea that in this spot it's much easier to take down the pot with a pot sized bet doesn't hold much merit since hero reraised preflop. With this action villain is forced to decide if he wants to go with the hand all the way through.

[ QUOTE ]
as you have been making posts to exclusively discuss the book it is fairly ridiculous youre unaware of this

[/ QUOTE ]

Wrong. I made ONE post about the book.

[ QUOTE ]
bluffing is something very different than semibluffing, but something the two concepts hold in common is that you shouldnt be calling off money while doing them, you should almost always be the final aggressor, as what makes the plays profitable is fold equity, fold equity, fold equity

[/ QUOTE ]

Was there any point in time when I disputed this?

[ QUOTE ]
btw what did tommy say?

[/ QUOTE ]

Is there a legitimate reason you're bringing Tommy into this? In other words, did you think this strategy would help your argument?

Re: 2 5/10 NL 6 max hands, I\'m turning into a LAG
 

Rika:

it's a lot better to be the one pushing allin with a draw than the one calling someone else's allin on a draw.

If stack sizes and bet sizes are such that you can't sanely push, you want to keep the pot smaller.

Or wait and push the turn.