Hidden Outs
 

In TOP, Prof. Slansky states that failing to account for all hidden outs can cause a player to fold a hand that might otherwise be worth playing.

That said, wouldn't one's opponent also have a few hidden outs that increase the value of his hand and decrease your pot equity?

It would seem that taking into account your hidden outs without allowing for your opponent's would cause you to give your hand "props" it doesn't deserve.

Re: Hidden Outs
 

Keep reading.... The section after "Extra Outs" covers this.

Re: Hidden Outs
 

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It would seem that taking into account your hidden outs without allowing for your opponent's would cause you to give your hand "props" it doesn't deserve.

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Refer to "A Simple Technique" on page 40 of Sklansky's "Fighting Fuzzy Thinking in Poker, Gaming & Life." Your question is expertly explained in this essay.

Re: Hidden Outs
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It would seem that taking into account your hidden outs without allowing for your opponent's would cause you to give your hand "props" it doesn't deserve.

[/ QUOTE ]

Refer to "A Simple Technique" on page 40 of Sklansky's "Fighting Fuzzy Thinking in Poker, Gaming & Life." Your question is expertly explained in this essay.

[/ QUOTE ]

Or P.108 of SSH

Re: Hidden Outs
 

Sure hidden outs are VERY important. Here is a hand that seemed worthless but I saw hidden outs.

1/2 holdem at the local casino. I was waiting on a tournament.

Bunch of limpers and 1 raiser from the SB. I limped on the CO with As2s. Everyone called

HAND: As 2s
FLOP: 3d 8c Qs

The SB bets out and gets 2 callers. Now there were 15 SB in the pot already and it seems I got absoluate ZERO. Well after taking about 10 seconds to act I figured the SB had KK. I had an ace, there was a queen on the board so it was not likely he had AA or QQ in his hand. He bet immidiate and quick. So that leaves me with 2 backdoors (str8 and flusg) and 1 over. In Poverstove my pot equity is almost 18% for this hand. WOW.

HAND: As 2s
TURN: 3d 8c Qs 5d

SB bet again, the others fold and now its up to me. I am heads up with 16 SB in front of me. I can pretty much count on this guy calling a river bet so 18 SB pot equity for 1 BB. I now have a gut draw and over (7 outs I figure). Plenty of outs.

HAND: As 2s
RIVER: 3d 8c Qs 5d 4c

SB bets again and I raise seeing I have the nuts. He calls, I win. Before I would have tossed that hand like it was a hot potato. Because I took a second to think I was able to make that play and win money.

Re: Hidden Outs
 

omg, I HOPE winky is kidding...

TT

Re: Hidden Outs
 

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HAND: As 2s
RIVER: 3d 8c Qs 5d 4c

SB bets again and I raise seeing I have the nuts.

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Yeah, the nuts! Except for any 2/6 or 5/6 hand.

Jimbo

Re: Hidden Outs
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
HAND: As 2s
RIVER: 3d 8c Qs 5d 4c

SB bets again and I raise seeing I have the nuts.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, the nuts! Except for any 2/6 or 6/7 hand .

Jimbo

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FYP

Re: Hidden Outs
 

Be careful when chasing a hand and believing you had the nuts. 67 was the nuts on that hand and if the other player was bluffing on the flop holding 67 he definitely would have bet the turn with an open-ended draw. Then the river would have came and the both of you would have gone back and forth until your stack was gone because you thought your A2 was the nuts.

Re: Hidden Outs
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
HAND: As 2s
RIVER: 3d 8c Qs 5d 4c

SB bets again and I raise seeing I have the nuts.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, the nuts! Except for any 2/6 or 6/7 hand .

Jimbo

[/ QUOTE ]

FYP

[/ QUOTE ] Oops! Thank you.........

Jimbo

Re: Hidden Outs
 

The better was the PF raiser. These players were soooooo bad the other literally could have had anything. But yes I took that into consideration. Ironically the PF raise hit a set of QQQ. If I would have known it would have been a fold. He was also a Miami Heat basketball pro.

Re: Hidden Outs
 

SB was the PR raiser. Yea he's raising with 62 or 56 PF. Look at the hand.

Re: Hidden Outs
 

Hello read the god damn hand.

Re: Hidden Outs
 

READ THE FRAKING HAND!!! He was the PF raiser so he had a big fricken pair not 62 or 76

Re: Hidden Outs
 

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READ THE FRAKING HAND!!! He was the PF raiser so he had a big fricken pair not 62 or 76

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people don't raise non pairs?

at any rate your equity wasn't close to 18%. you know you don't win the hand if you beat KK right. you said there were two other callers, you have to beat them too.

Re: Hidden Outs
 

Yup. I wasnt following the turn if others were in the pot. And no that player was not a nut to raise suited connectors in the BB. Your giving them too much credit. I nailed him to a big pair and I was right. It was a set though. This is 1/2 no foldem holdem.

Ahh fuggetaboutit. I know I had a good read on the table the player, and the hands. The pot odds were huge. I won a good deal of money that day for 1/2.

Re: Hidden Outs
 

This hand is sketchy at best. There is another type of player that chases gutshots to the river, and they don't typically win a lot of money. What happened this hand, was that you seemed to convieniently put the pfr on the hand that gave you the most equity in the pot.

PFR could easily have AA, AQ or QQ here as well (and he did) which makes this a really bad -EV play, not to mention the other 2 players in the hand who could easily have a paired Ax or 67s. I'm definetly dumping this every time on the turn when it was heads up and all I had is a gutshot. It's pretty clear to me then that my ace will rarely be good when it hits.

EDIT: Why did you count your ace outs as half outs on the flop and then as full outs on the turn? Did you really think the PFR would ALWAYS have KK?

Re: Hidden Outs
 

I know these players. They dont raise with AQ or AK into a bunch of players. They ONLY raise with AA-QQ. Thats it. They all play scared.

If anyone called the turn I fold. No one did and I was suspected me good was good. If I only counted my ace as 1.5 outs then I am still with 5.5 which is 1:7. The pot was 1:9 not including implied.

These players really do call with anything. Ace high, bottom pair terrible kicker. Pair of 22s with 4 overs and 2 draws. I mean they are the worse of the worst. Many pots are 7-8 players in it. I raise suited connectors on the button all the time. Then they all check to me for the free shot at another draw. Example of these players. Ive even seen some reraise when someone else has the buts when it seems obvious they can be behind. I wish they played online. I mean bad. 2 callers on that flop? No way they got 6 whatever. They would call the turn too. They call the turn I fold. They didnt. But I do see your point.

After the results I was wrong for calling. But 3x AA, 3x QQ, 6x KK. Well I guess my odds were cut in half. 2 outs for both backdoors, 1.5 outs for my ace. 3.5 outs is still 12:1. Pot was 16:1 on the flop or around there.

Re: Hidden Outs
 

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These players really do call with anything. Ace high, bottom pair terrible kicker. Pair of 22s with 4 overs and 2 draws. I mean they are the worse of the worst.

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that leaves me with 2 backdoors (str8 and flusg) and 1 over. In Poverstove my pot equity is almost 18% for this hand. WOW.


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~

Re: Hidden Outs
 

If this hand is even profitable (not convinced), you're definitely not giving up much if you let this go on the flop.

A three-straight doesn't count for anything unless it at least has a chance to give you an OESD on the turn. As it was you drew to the idiot-end of a gutshot. That's a serious long shot from the flop and not really worth considering.

I add up your true outs and the odds and even if this play is wrong it is not a huge money loser. But people who choose to go away on the flop are not losing lots of money by doing so, either.