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-   -   Sites Have Motivation to Reward Poor Players. Period. (http://archives2.twoplustwo.com/showthread.php?t=380102)

webmonarch 11-17-2005 02:02 AM

Sites Have Motivation to Reward Poor Players. Period.
 
So, one day I decided to send what I will call a "bitch e-mail" that effectively asked about a string of bad beats to Pokerstars (by the way, Stars is just the example, I refer to all Sites in this post) support to see what kind of response I would get. Here is their response.

<font color="green"> " I can assure you that it makes no difference to us who wins. Why would we not just set it up so that you were just losing when you were behind and never give you a badbeat. Can you see where I am going with this. You see, if you look for certain things then you will find them.

Losing to long shots are a part of poker and if you are a good player and tend to only get involved with stronger holdings, then you will suffer more badbeats. That is all there is to it. The thing is that we tend to forget all the times that our good hands held up because that is suppose to happen. We simply have selective memory. When things happen the way they should, we disregard it. When you cross the street without being hit by a car, or when a meteor fails to fall out of the sky and go through your window, or when AA holds up, we simply fail to remember it. There's no reason to, it was supposed to happen that way. When something bad happens though (as it well should from time to time, for if it didn't, you might have good reason to be suspect of our RNG) it stands out.

Believe me, we've heard it all. Software that rewards poor players. Software that rewards short stacked players. Software that rewards large stacked players. Software that penalizes old users, winning users, new users, and software that REWARDS all of the above. People who've cashed out, people who've just deposited, people who haven't deposited in a long time, people who haven't cashed out in a long time. Good luck and bad luck switches: everyone has a story for why they aren't getting the cards they deserve. The bottom line is that none of these stories are true." </font>

OK. Let's talk a bit more about these things.

First, Stars claiming that "it makes no difference to them who wins" is laughable. It DEFINITELY makes a difference to them who wins.

The Sites maximize their earnings when they have players that are as evenly matched as possible playing as many hands as possible. If the sites had their perfect utopia we would all start with, say, $500, and play heads up for hours and hours until the rake would have eaten all of our money, save for a couple cents won by whoever won the last hand.

The Sites do NOT want to have say, Paul the Pro and Fred the Fish sit down at a NL table and have Paul take all of Fred's money in one hand. Why? First, the rake is less. Second, Fred just lost his money and may not want to return/reload at the site, etc. Both are bad for the sites.

So, what to do? Easy. Level the playing field. Give Fred a little bit extra on the odds, make sure Fred gets AA a little more often, etc. A rational Site would create the most even playing field possible, so that they reach the utopia I set out above. If done in a minimal and random way there would be virtually NO chance of players picking up on the modifications.

Simply put, a Site claiming that it "makes no difference to them who wins" is a laughable, misleading and completely untrue statement.

Finally, let me be as clear as possible when I say this: <font color="red"> I am not accusing any site of engaging in these "playing field leveling" acctivities. </font> What I am doing is pointing out that any site that claims it is indifferent to who wins on their tables is either (a) painfully ignorant or (b) lying.

Whether they do it is up for debate. Whether they have the motivation to is not. They do. Period.

Guthrie 11-17-2005 02:05 AM

Re: Sites Have Motivation to Reward Poor Players. Period.
 
I like tacos.

11-17-2005 02:15 AM

Re: Sites Have Motivation to Reward Poor Players. Period.
 
[ QUOTE ]
I like tacos.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've rather taking a liking to toasted cheese sandwiches dunked into tomato soup.

Adam22 11-17-2005 02:16 AM

Re: Sites Have Motivation to Reward Poor Players. Period.
 
you're right, let's just ignore the entire sensical, well thought out email that they were nice enough to send to a loon such as yourself and focus on the first sentences which you take issue with.

siccjay 11-17-2005 02:29 AM

Re: Sites Have Motivation to Reward Poor Players. Period.
 
[ QUOTE ]
I like tacos.

[/ QUOTE ]

Mmmmm Taco Bell.

bandfan 11-17-2005 02:39 AM

Re: Sites Have Motivation to Reward Poor Players. Period.
 
this has to be one of the worst threads in history

TTChamp 11-17-2005 02:44 AM

Re: Sites Have Motivation to Reward Poor Players. Period.
 
So why don't you just start playing badly so that the site starts letting you put bad beats on other people?


BTW, how do you get 300+ posts and then post this?

Maulik 11-17-2005 02:45 AM

Re: Sites Have Motivation to Reward Poor Players. Period.
 
I just hope he isn't representing UMD graduates =[

Recliner 11-17-2005 02:56 AM

Re: Sites Have Motivation to Reward Poor Players. Period.
 
I'm a big fan of burritos.

siccjay 11-17-2005 03:00 AM

Re: Sites Have Motivation to Reward Poor Players. Period.
 
[ QUOTE ]


BTW, how do you get 300+ posts and then post this?

[/ QUOTE ]

Very good question. I haven't seen him in OOT. Must be WPT.

Reef 11-17-2005 06:08 AM

Re: Sites Have Motivation to Reward Poor Players. Period.
 
Live poker is rigged

Photoc 11-17-2005 06:48 AM

Re: Sites Have Motivation to Reward Poor Players. Period.
 
Yet another waste of forum space. Hasn't this type of thread been banned from here yet?
You should go on the national news or something with your revelations and paranoia.

edfurlong 11-17-2005 07:18 AM

Re: Sites Have Motivation to Reward Poor Players. Period.
 
This post is stupid. This type of post should never be banned however.

JayLeno 11-17-2005 07:36 AM

Re: Sites Have Motivation to Reward Poor Players. Period.
 
[ QUOTE ]


Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I like tacos.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Mmmmm Taco Bell.

[/ QUOTE ]

well - Taco Bell is actually shidt - but I cant stay away from them either. At least its better than crappy McD!

oreogod 11-17-2005 07:58 AM

Re: Sites Have Motivation to Reward Poor Players. Period.
 
[ QUOTE ]
I like tacos.

[/ QUOTE ]


http://www.deercrack.com/crack/jlo.jpg


Burrito. Taco taco. Burrito. Taco. Taco taco.
Don't think just because I got a lot of money,
I'll give you taco-flavored kisses, honey.
Fulfill all your wishes
with my taco-flavored kisses.

Taco taco. Burrito burrito. Taco taco.
Fulfill all your wishes
with my taco-flavored kisses! Taco taco.

OrianasDaad 11-17-2005 08:21 AM

Re: Sites Have Motivation to Reward Poor Players. Period.
 
One skilled, long-term multi-tabler, pays as much rake perhaps as at least two or three single-tabling fish.

This has been discussed before. I've always maintained that it was in the poker-room's best interests to keep feeding the sharks.

Since there are alot of paranoid freaks out there, I don't see the poker-rooms screwing with their algorithims too much, but I could be wrong. I don't think it's in any sites' best interest to have it where nobody wins except in the short term.

Mostly, I disagree with what you posted. Pokerstars support has it right. Here's your homework assignment:

Go back into PT and look at your flop and turn winning %'s for those string of bad beats. How bad off were you really? Remember, a poker-player who is dishonest with themself is a losing player, so please avoid stretching the truth at all.

FlFishOn 11-17-2005 08:25 AM

Re: Sites Have Motivation to Reward Poor Players. Period.
 
"Whether they have the motivation (proping up poor players) to is not. They do."

There is no sense of agreement here on this painfully obvious issue. Anyone (mis?)spending his life playing online poker is usually unable to admit, on any level, that the game that sucks up all their life's output might be crooked. This is a hugely powerful force. You won't overcome it with logic.

Nicok7 11-17-2005 09:19 AM

Re: Sites Have Motivation to Reward Poor Players. Period.
 
no

yvesaint 11-17-2005 09:33 AM

Re: Sites Have Motivation to Reward Poor Players. Period.
 
[ QUOTE ]
I like tacos.

[/ QUOTE ]

11-17-2005 09:34 AM

Re: Sites Have Motivation to Reward Poor Players. Period.
 
If you eat a hard taco while driving, you should wear a bib. I don't have a bib. I eat soft tacos when I drive.

11-17-2005 09:59 AM

Re: Sites Have Motivation to Reward Poor Players. Period.
 
You know what's good?

Satsuma mandarin oranges. They're in season only during november and december, at least here in the US. They are seedless tangerines, basically, and they are very good. Try them.

Sniper 11-17-2005 10:00 AM

Re: Sites Have Motivation to Reward Poor Players. Period.
 
OOT and Politics [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Hornacek 11-17-2005 10:20 AM

Re: Sites Have Motivation to Reward Poor Players. Period.
 
Taco and Burrito Poll!

Tilt 11-17-2005 10:31 AM

Re: Sites Have Motivation to Reward Poor Players. Period.
 
You know, it really was one of the most interesting online poker is rigger threads I have seen in a while. How did it become a taco thread?

I don't agree with the OP that this is happening at PS, but its an interesting question as to whether some sites may someday feel incented to use their software to guarantee that the fish pass over the rake a few extra times. Pokerstars never, they have too much to lose. But what about the smaller sites, as the become economically desperate, as they near the point where they have to post some good short-term results in order to find a willing buyer for their site?

One of these days a site is going to be exposed by evidence of "non-random" card patterns. I hope when that happens it doesn't chase a lot of people away. I do not understand why there isn't already an inspection/certification company or group out there to protect us and these sites against the impression of rigged cards.

11-17-2005 10:38 AM

Re: Sites Have Motivation to Reward Poor Players. Period.
 
[ QUOTE ]
Taco and Burrito Poll!

[/ QUOTE ]

CHIPOTLE NO QUESTION!

DuggleBogey 11-17-2005 10:41 AM

Re: Sites Have Motivation to Reward Poor Players. Period.
 
Did you notice that the previous poster had an avatar that says "Tilt" and the poster previous to him had a name that says "Tilt?"

That is so incredibly unlikely, that this forum is obviously rigged.

UATrewqaz 11-17-2005 11:24 AM

Re: Sites Have Motivation to Reward Poor Players. Period.
 
Two points.

1. I believe all of the major poker sites deal a 100% fair game.

2. I do not blindly trust all online poker sites and am ever vigilant for shady business.

I think sadly there are morons on both sides. OBviously the "omfg its rigged!!!11" crowd are stupid but there are also alot of blind faith &amp; trust people who could possible fall victim to a scam.

If large companies based in the US can pull shady crap (Enron, Worldcom, etc.) then certainly a shadowy online gambling company very well might.

Oh, and wtf is up with emailing a complaint letter due to bad beats? No wonder customer service at poker sites is so bad. Imagine how many emails they get like this a day.

timprov 11-17-2005 11:27 AM

Re: Sites Have Motivation to Reward Poor Players. Period.
 
Taco John's.

Edit: and it's not close.

Eder 11-17-2005 11:28 AM

Re: Sites Have Motivation to Reward Poor Players. Period.
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I like tacos.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Mmmmm Taco Bell.

[/ QUOTE ]

well - Taco Bell is actually shidt - but I cant stay away from them either. At least its better than crappy McD!

[/ QUOTE ]

But I would rather own MCD stock atm

IndieMatty 11-17-2005 11:32 AM

Re: Sites Have Motivation to Reward Poor Players. Period.
 
[ QUOTE ]
You know, it really was one of the most interesting online poker is rigger threads I have seen in a while. How did it become a taco thread?

[/ QUOTE ]

sniff. [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

grouchie 11-17-2005 11:34 AM

Re: Sites Have Motivation to Reward Poor Players. Period.
 
[ QUOTE ]
Taco and Burrito Poll!

[/ QUOTE ]

why no Del Taco sir?

Hornacek 11-17-2005 11:36 AM

Re: Sites Have Motivation to Reward Poor Players. Period.
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I like tacos.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Mmmmm Taco Bell.

[/ QUOTE ]

well - Taco Bell is actually shidt - but I cant stay away from them either. At least its better than crappy McD!

[/ QUOTE ]

But I would rather own MCD stock atm

[/ QUOTE ]

Call my silly, but I'd rather own GOOG [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

And sorry about the omissions in the poll. I've actually never heard of some of them; are they local taco restaurants?

Dennisa 11-17-2005 11:46 AM

Re: Sites Have Motivation to Reward Poor Players. Period.
 
Ever think its your play? I am about 99% sure I was playing against you last night on grid. Although shorthanded you semi bluffed / bluffed at almost every opportunity. You 4 bet pocket ducks on the flop without a set. You bet your j9 gutshot on the flop for 3 bets and hit your straight on the river. If anything, sites should be giving you juiced cards to keep you in the game.

Dennisa 11-17-2005 11:48 AM

Re: Sites Have Motivation to Reward Poor Players. Period.
 
[ QUOTE ]
Taco John's.

Edit: and it's not close.

[/ QUOTE ]
Ewwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww!

webmonarch 11-17-2005 11:52 AM

Re: Sites Have Motivation to Reward Poor Players. Period.
 
[ QUOTE ]
There is no sense of agreement here on this painfully obvious issue. Anyone (mis?)spending his life playing online poker is usually unable to admit, on any level, that the game that sucks up all their life's output might be crooked. This is a hugely powerful force. You won't overcome it with logic.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nor, it seems, will I overcome it with bright red letters that state that <font color="red"> "I am not accusing any site of engaging in these "playing field leveling" activities." </font>

Indeed a rational discussion about a sites potential motivation seems to have been turned into a taco thread. You must admit this is amusing, given all the discussion about appropriate odds, correct lines, maximizing returns etc. on this site.

So, I guess for the people that missed it, (or didn't read it) <font color="red"> "I am not accusing any site of engaging in these "playing field leveling" activities." </font>

One more time:

<font color="red"> "I am not accusing any site of engaging in these "playing field leveling" activities." </font>

I think that should do it now. We're discussing motivation, not whether sites do it.

webmonarch 11-17-2005 11:59 AM

Re: Sites Have Motivation to Reward Poor Players. Period.
 
[ QUOTE ]
I don't agree with the OP that this is happening at PS,

[/ QUOTE ]

Please read the post before you respond to it.

"(by the way, Stars is just the example, I refer to all Sites in this post)"

And, again:

<font color="red"> I am not accusing any site of engaging in these "playing field leveling" acctivities. </font>

I put it in italics this time. Is that better?

11-17-2005 12:00 PM

Re: Sites Have Motivation to Reward Poor Players. Period.
 
You make a good point.

You could also just as well say that all grocery stores have a motivation to empty your bank account or run your credit card up to the limit as soon as you buy with a credit or debit card. They have a motivation to actually charge you $2000 for $20 worth of groceries.

For some odd reason, they don't do this. I wonder why?

Hornacek 11-17-2005 12:04 PM

Re: Sites Have Motivation to Reward Poor Players. Period.
 
Has anyone here been to Ana's Tacqueria or Boca Grande in New England? I was there for school for 5 years... personally I think its the best, but any other opinions?

Tilt 11-17-2005 12:22 PM

Re: Sites Have Motivation to Reward Poor Players. Period.
 
Hey man, I supported you. Then you flame me. Go stick a taco up your [censored].

primetime32 11-17-2005 12:50 PM

Re: Sites Have Motivation to Reward Poor Players. Period.
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I don't agree with the OP that this is happening at PS,

[/ QUOTE ]

Please read the post before you respond to it.

"(by the way, Stars is just the example, I refer to all Sites in this post)"

And, again:

<font color="red"> I am not accusing any site of engaging in these "playing field leveling" acctivities. </font>

I put it in italics this time. Is that better?

[/ QUOTE ]

The problem is that your post is either accusing them of doing it or completely useless. Who cares if they have motiviation to rig their sites? Everyone would do better in business if they cheated.

taco bell would save money if they used horse meat instead of cow meat. Does that mean they do that? well, they may, but you get the point.

Anyone who posts up a topic regarding the rigging or potential rigging of an online site will always be attacked unless they come forward with more than circumstantial proof that the sites are rigged.


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