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-   -   Why did you checkraise? (http://archives2.twoplustwo.com/showthread.php?t=406821)

sfer 12-28-2005 11:43 PM

Why did you checkraise?
 
Party 20 game, 8 handed. CO posts. Folded to the CO who checks his option, I raise 22 on the button, unknown SB calls, BB folds, CO calls.

Flop is QQ4. Check/check, I bet, SB checkraises, CO folds, I call.

Turn is a 5. SB bets, I raise...

CardSharpCook 12-29-2005 12:39 AM

Re: Why did you checkraise?
 
I think call down mode is better. I'm worried about a 4. A Q is also possible.

bakku 12-29-2005 12:41 AM

Re: Why did you checkraise?
 
[ QUOTE ]
I think call down mode is better. I'm worried about a 4. A Q is also possible.

[/ QUOTE ]

i think calling the turn is the worst of your 3 options

WillyTrailer 12-29-2005 12:48 AM

Re: Why did you checkraise?
 
[ QUOTE ]
I think call down mode is better. I'm worried about a 4. A Q is also possible.

[/ QUOTE ]

on a board like this he'll have to fold hands with a lot of outs if he was taking a shot at the flop with A high or somehting. he also may fold a better hand. nevertheless you'll send a solid message to the guy who is, as of now, unknown letting him know not to [censored] with you and keeping his bluffing frequency low which is what Dave has said many times he likes.
also, it is, of course, an easy fold to a reraise.

what kind of range are you putting this guy on that has a 4 in it?

-WT

me454555 12-29-2005 01:53 AM

Re: Why did you checkraise?
 
I agree. Raising here forces your opponent to make a decision and your hand becomes very easy to play once that decision is made.

1) Your opponent folds - this is good

2) Your oppoennt 3bets - this is bad and you fold. Net cost is only 2 bb

3) Your opponent calls - you check behind the river or fold if bet into. Net cost 2 bb.

Your going to spend only 2 bbs by calling the turn and river you spend the same amount but don't get the oportunity of folding anyone out of the pot.

W/all that being said, I just toss my 22 on the turn rather than raise them. If you had a specific read on your opponent I'd like it better.

SackUp 12-29-2005 04:10 AM

Re: Why did you checkraise?
 
[ QUOTE ]
I agree. Raising here forces your opponent to make a decision and your hand becomes very easy to play once that decision is made.

1) Your opponent folds - this is good

2) Your oppoennt 3bets - this is bad and you fold. Net cost is only 2 bb

3) Your opponent calls - you check behind the river or fold if bet into. Net cost 2 bb.

Your going to spend only 2 bbs by calling the turn and river you spend the same amount but don't get the oportunity of folding anyone out of the pot.

W/all that being said, I just toss my 22 on the turn rather than raise them. If you had a specific read on your opponent I'd like it better.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm with you until you say that you would rather just fold your twos on the Turn. Why even call the flop c/r then? You don't have enough to call a 2 outer and it is unlikely that the guy is checking any turn card even on a bluff. If you are calling this flop c/r then it should be with the idea of getting to SD.

I say we either fold the flop c/r or pop any turn hoping to take it down right there or get a free SD.

CardSharpCook 12-29-2005 04:48 AM

Re: Why did you checkraise?
 
you're right about the turn raise. Don't know what I was thinking.

Joe Tall 12-29-2005 10:10 AM

Re: Why did you checkraise?
 
[ QUOTE ]
Turn is a 5. SB bets, I raise...

[/ QUOTE ]

folding to a three-bet and taking a free showdown, nh.

dave44 12-29-2005 01:41 PM

Re: Why did you checkraise?
 
Pretty close to a fold I'd say on the flop, which is why I would never raise 22 here preflop. That said, against an unknown I'm not letting him have the pot so raising this turn is a must.

highlife 12-29-2005 03:04 PM

Re: Why did you checkraise?
 
stealing with small pocket pairs can't be profitable in the party 20 game, although i would love to see some numbers to refute or backup my statement.

sfer 12-29-2005 03:55 PM

Re: Why did you checkraise?
 
[ QUOTE ]
stealing with small pocket pairs can't be profitable in the party 20 game, although i would love to see some numbers to refute or backup my statement.

[/ QUOTE ]

So you'll raise 77+ in that spot?

sfer 12-29-2005 03:55 PM

Re: Why did you checkraise?
 
[ QUOTE ]
W/all that being said, I just toss my 22 on the turn rather than raise them. If you had a specific read on your opponent I'd like it better.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't disagree, but on a QQ4 flop with a player in between, what does he have?

highlife 12-29-2005 04:01 PM

Re: Why did you checkraise?
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
stealing with small pocket pairs can't be profitable in the party 20 game, although i would love to see some numbers to refute or backup my statement.

[/ QUOTE ]

So you'll raise 77+ in that spot?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd go as low as 55+ if the numbers of the blinds showed enough possibility of fold equity.

I hope my post didn't sound condescending, I definately didn't mean it to be that way. I just have found that 22-44 was not a stealing hand in this game. I do think you played the hand quite well after the flop.

highlife 12-29-2005 04:07 PM

Re: Why did you checkraise?
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
W/all that being said, I just toss my 22 on the turn rather than raise them. If you had a specific read on your opponent I'd like it better.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't disagree, but on a QQ4 flop with a player in between, what does he have?

[/ QUOTE ]

just overcards, any ace, a 4, 33-99

if he is a bad player he may still call the turn raise with a worse hand (overcards), and also a decent thinking player will very often release a mediocre (but better) hand here.

a raise on the turn is a profitable play against a couple different types of players, so a read is not as important here as in some other hands i think.

sfer 12-29-2005 07:13 PM

Re: Why did you checkraise?
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
stealing with small pocket pairs can't be profitable in the party 20 game, although i would love to see some numbers to refute or backup my statement.

[/ QUOTE ]

So you'll raise 77+ in that spot?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd go as low as 55+ if the numbers of the blinds showed enough possibility of fold equity.

I hope my post didn't sound condescending, I definately didn't mean it to be that way. I just have found that 22-44 was not a stealing hand in this game. I do think you played the hand quite well after the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hmmm, that's interesting. I am raising any playable hand here and most crappy hands as well. With position, the extra SB, and seeing that the CO has cheese I'm looking for excuses to get involved.

highlife 12-29-2005 07:31 PM

Re: Why did you checkraise?
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
stealing with small pocket pairs can't be profitable in the party 20 game, although i would love to see some numbers to refute or backup my statement.

[/ QUOTE ]

So you'll raise 77+ in that spot?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd go as low as 55+ if the numbers of the blinds showed enough possibility of fold equity.

I hope my post didn't sound condescending, I definately didn't mean it to be that way. I just have found that 22-44 was not a stealing hand in this game. I do think you played the hand quite well after the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hmmm, that's interesting. I am raising any playable hand here and most crappy hands as well. With position, the extra SB, and seeing that the CO has cheese I'm looking for excuses to get involved.

[/ QUOTE ]

okay, fair enough. my problem with those hands is probably I don't play them well enough postflop in all honesty.

me454555 12-30-2005 02:19 AM

Re: Why did you checkraise?
 
Yeah dont really know what I was thikning about calling the flop and folding to the turn bet. I think I meant to say that I'd fold it to the flop c/r.

private joker 12-30-2005 03:37 AM

Re: Why did you checkraise?
 
I like this hand a lot, Dave. What turn cards are you not raising when you call the flop c/r? A? 4? T/J/K? Or are you always raising the turn...

Victor 12-30-2005 07:25 AM

Re: Why did you checkraise?
 
i would fold the flop. you are playing with fulltable fags remember. expect to see a4 here and realize you made him feel smart.

Victor 12-30-2005 07:26 AM

Re: Why did you checkraise?
 
i only like pf if the blinds are so tight that you would make this play with xx.

Joe Tall 12-30-2005 10:50 AM

Re: Why did you checkraise?
 
[ QUOTE ]
i only like pf if the blinds are so tight that you would make this play with xx.

[/ QUOTE ]

Victor,

22 is not xx. 22 is a showdown hand and if you can get HU often with position, you are going to win often enough to show a profit.

I just ran a PP fliter:

22-66 and chance to steal & raised at 0.34BB/hand over my last 65k hands, 167 opportunities (most recent DB).

Victor 12-30-2005 01:03 PM

Re: Why did you checkraise?
 
22 is much different than 66. its more like 33.

Trix 12-30-2005 03:40 PM

Re: Why did you checkraise?
 
I fold to the flop CR.

I dont think he is bluffing often enough to call down with a hand that pretty much canīt improve.

Luv2DriveTT 12-31-2005 01:27 AM

Re: Why did you checkraise?
 
[ QUOTE ]
I fold to the flop CR.

I dont think he is bluffing often enough to call down with a hand that pretty much canīt improve.

[/ QUOTE ]

More often than not Hero will have to invest 2.5 BB to win what is currently 5.25 BB (will of course become 7.5BB by the river assuming the opponent bets all streets). Assuming TheDaver is going to see a river then a turn raise is the correct play for a free showdown/fold to a 3-bet.

With that said I still fold on the flop without intimate knowledge of my opponent, his range of possible hands is too great regardless of the Queens, any paired hand beats the hero so why bother proceeding?

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

dave44 12-31-2005 04:27 PM

Re: Why did you checkraise?
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i only like pf if the blinds are so tight that you would make this play with xx.

[/ QUOTE ]

Victor,

22 is not xx. 22 is a showdown hand and if you can get HU often with position, you are going to win often enough to show a profit.

I just ran a PP fliter:

22-66 and chance to steal & raised at 0.34BB/hand over my last 65k hands, 167 opportunities (most recent DB).

[/ QUOTE ]

1. 66 is waaaay better than 22. 66 is an easy raise two off the button.

2. 167 hands means very close to nothing esp. in blind battles.


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