discussion of my main leak ( playing too aggressive on loose tables )
 

ok. i've just recently moved back up to 10/20 from 5/10 on party ( you might recall that i made this leap about 2 months ago but was totally crushed due to an insane downswing/realization that my stealing and defense suck microbob's hog ).

so anyway after 2 good months at 5/10 i decided i needed to try 10/20 again. now, i've been running pretty break even for the last 5000 hands or so but i think that i've basically figured out one of the main reasons i had so much trouble at 10/20 and why i continue to have trouble.

at 5/10 because the players are tighter than on 10/20 ( which is a strange phenomenon but it's pretty consistent i've found ) it's a lot easier for me to steal the blinds or win the pot on the flop by betting stuff like KJs, QTs, KQo, ATo etc from pretty much any position. i do very well at 5/10 betting stuff like this preflop because i'm not likely to get callers and when i do they usually reraise and i'm done with the hand on the flop. at 10/20 i'm much more likely to get a couple of calls from weak players who call me down with low pairs, weird draws, whatever.

so basically what i'm asking is

1) has anyone else experienced this and is it definetly something that might be a major problem?

2) am i correct that it is suicidal to raise stuff like QTs MP when i have a 40 vpip and a 30 vpip left to act after me? i just did this prior to deciding to make this post, looked at their stats and literally grabbed my hair, realizing that there was no way i was playing that hand in that situation profitably.

i'd appreciate any feedback regarding playing in looser games. thanks.

Re: discussion of my main leak ( playing too aggressive on loose table
 

i see how it is [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

Re: discussion of my main leak ( playing too aggressive on loose table
 

I gather this would make a better post in the middle stakes limits. I'm still trying not to view porn while I play five tables.

Re: discussion of my main leak ( playing too aggressive on loose table
 

I've also noticed the 10/20 and 15/30 tables to be considerably looser.

1. This isn't a major problem, you just have to adjust your play. It can probably be a major advantage if you play it right.

2. I'd check people's Coldcall% instead of VPIP when looking to raise from MP with a hand like QTs. Usually high VPIP = high CC%, but not always.

Re: discussion of my main leak ( playing too aggressive on loose table
 

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I gather this would make a better post in the middle stakes limits. I'm still trying not to view porn while I play five tables.

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10/20 is middle stakes now? ill check it, thanks

Re: discussion of my main leak ( playing too aggressive on loose table
 

Are you playing full ring or 6 max?

1. $10/20 is smstakes.
2.If your VP$IP is very high for full and kind of high for 6max unless you are frequently at 4 or less players. Most full are playing about 18-25% and 6 max around 28-35.
3. I have found $10/20 to not only be much looser than $5/10 online but the aggression factor is more than one notch up. I think it comes from a combination of a) Some are players who haven't been grinding it out and have more $ to gamble with. b) Some are players who consider themselves much better than others and figure they can outplay everyone, thus calling and being agg when others would fold.

Re: discussion of my main leak ( playing too aggressive on loose tables )
 

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at 5/10 because the players are tighter than on 10/20 ( which is a strange phenomenon but it's pretty consistent i've found ) it's a lot easier for me to steal the blinds or win the pot on the flop by betting stuff like KJs, QTs, KQo, ATo etc from pretty much any position. i do very well at 5/10 betting stuff like this preflop because i'm not likely to get callers and when i do they usually reraise and i'm done with the hand on the flop. at 10/20 i'm much more likely to get a couple of calls from weak players who call me down with low pairs, weird draws, whatever.

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I don't play online, but I have a hard time imagining that there are very many 5/10 tables where its profitable to raise QTs or ATo first in from early position. It seems like if the table is this tight then it must be hard to make any money at. You said that you generally only make money with these hands when you don't get any callers - if that's the case, why not raise 72o, if your only real chance is to the steal blinds? I mean, if you raise ATo UTG, get 3-bet, and see a flop of A38, what are you going to do? I don't mean to say that there are all junk hands - they're not and should be raised often - its just that raising them from "pretty much any position" can't be right. I suspect that to some extent you've just been running well with these hands at 5/10 and it has little to do with the difference between 5/10 and 10/20.

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at 10/20 i'm much more likely to get a couple of calls from weak players who call me down with low pairs, weird draws, whatever.

so basically what i'm asking is

1) has anyone else experienced this and is it definitely something that might be a major problem?

2) am i correct that it is suicidal to raise stuff like QTs MP when i have a 40 vpip and a 30 vpip left to act after me? i just did this prior to deciding to make this post, looked at their stats and literally grabbed my hair, realizing that there was no way i was playing that hand in that situation profitably.

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The 10/20 game you describe sounds a bit like the live 8/16 games I play in. A lot of players will actually cold-call raises with hands that they won't limp with - everyone like big pots and thinks they can outplay everyone. The only real change that I make to my raising standards is the normal loose game adjustment - be more inclined to raise hands that play well multi-way (like KTs) and avoid some of the more marginal high-card type hands (like KJo).

In your example (raising QTs from MP with two loose players behind you) I think it could go either way - it really depends on how they are going to play after the flop. 40/30 vpip doesn't mean a lot to me, but if it means that they will call with lots of weaker hands than yours, then you have an edge here you can push - especially if your raises will make them more likely to make FTOP mistakes post-flop.

Short Version
1) Yes, it's a mistake to raise these hands from just anywhere, regardless of the game.
2) Especially in looser games, you have to be prepared to play post-flop with these hands - you can't just give up if you fail to steal the blinds.

(btw, thanks for asking this - thinking about the answer has made some things clearer to me, I think)

Re: discussion of my main leak ( playing too aggressive on loose table
 

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I gather this would make a better post in the middle stakes limits. I'm still trying not to view porn while I play five tables.

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10/20 is middle stakes now? ill check it, thanks

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Yes, we reworked the arrangement of the limit forums about a month ago and the new mid stakes forum is for roughly 10/20 through 30/60.

Re: discussion of my main leak ( playing too aggressive on loose table
 

[ QUOTE ]
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I gather this would make a better post in the middle stakes limits. I'm still trying not to view porn while I play five tables.

[/ QUOTE ]

10/20 is middle stakes now? ill check it, thanks

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We've been posting and discussing 10/20 in that forum lately.

Re: discussion of my main leak ( playing too aggressive on loose table
 

10/20 should be small stakes, but most 10/20 posts are in the middle stakes forums.

Probably because the 10/20 games are closer to those games than the 2/4 and 3/6 games.