Any review on the Gus Hansen and the Phil Gordon DVDs out yet?
 

The title says it all....

I am talking about
Advanced Hold'em Strategies DVD by Gus Hansen
and
Final Table Poker by Phil Gordon

Re: Any review on the Gus Hansen and the Phil Gordon DVDs out yet?
 

Ah yes, I have the Hansen one, and it's not really advanced. It's basically a follow up to the other DVD's put out by them. So it's pretty much everything you would learn after you learn the rules and some really basic stuff. Position, starting hands, playing the flop, turn, river(very basic), bluffing, changing gears, etc...not bad. But not all that advanced.

Re: Any review on the Gus Hansen and the Phil Gordon DVDs out yet?
 

How does it compare to Lederer's DVD's. Is it about the same w.r.t content?

Re: Any review on the Gus Hansen and the Phil Gordon DVDs out yet?
 

Hmmm, well...

What I am looking for is some video or book that explains the practical application of math and game theory on Hold'Em. Actually the stuff that David Sklansky explains in Theory of Poker with odd examples from Razz, Stud and Draw Poker that are totally beyond me, because I don't play these games.

We all know that bluffing can be based on percentages, but that's not the only area where math comes in. Ok, I can check if I should call an all-in with 8-8, but stuff like that can be analyzed before the game.

I want something where I see what the mathematical players like Gus Hansen or Andy Bloch are thinking about and that's definitely more than checking what their pot-odds are.

Hopefully Phil Gordon can deliver with his DVD although I am rather sceptical. It seems to me that the "real" stuff is more like a trade secret that they won't share with the average players.

Re: Any review on the Gus Hansen and the Phil Gordon DVDs out yet?
 

The one thing that I thought was somewhat interesting that I never really thought of, is that in a heads up pot, it's about 40% that noone hits anything, so whoever bets first may just win the pot. He said that alot of what he does is just betting the flops, and picking up alot of small pots. Another thing he said was that position is less important to him because normally he wants to be first to bet. His style diminishes the importance of position. I have to say this clicked a bit for me, but alot of other stuff was already known to me. After I saw this DVD, I was playing pretty aggressive. I played in a NLHE home game and was basically just stealing and betting alot more than I used to, with great results. Another thing, he said when the blinds become reasonable compared to the stacks, he steals almost 100% from the CO and Button positions if it's folded around to him. Pretty interesting also...although maybe this was already known to most, and just not me. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: Any review on the Gus Hansen and the Phil Gordon DVDs out yet?
 

I have also noticed that he wants to be the first one to bet. I have seen him throw away better cards, than he plays in first position. One time he threw away Q-8o and then opened with something like 2-5o from first position shortly after. Basically his style is Super System on steroids. I don't know if it is even a good idea if one tries to copy it. Living on the edge and playing the players instead of the cards requires something that you can't learn from DVDs.

In the endgame it is all about game theory and bluffing percentage. I'd guess that they could play even without looking at their hands.

Well, I hope that HoH 2 will give us more insight on that.

Re: Any review on the Gus Hansen and the Phil Gordon DVDs out yet?
 

I would say he plays more the math, than the players. He bets, because he knows a good amount of the time they will just fold. He steals because he knows people will fold. He gets more action on his good hands too. Also, he even said it himself, sometimes he won't play a hand for an hour, and then he will play 5 in a row. He is always changing gears.

Re: Any review on the Gus Hansen and the Phil Gordon DVDs out yet?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I want something where I see what the mathematical players like Gus Hansen or Andy Bloch are thinking about and that's definitely more than checking what their pot-odds are.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think what you want is not a DVD, but a book called HOH.

Re: Any review on the Gus Hansen and the Phil Gordon DVDs out yet?
 

Actually I got HoH and I LOVE it! The point is that there is a bit of math, but not that much. Maybe part 2 is different.

Bloch had a chatlog on his webpage where he is talking about the Simplex algorithm helping him to solve poker problems. That goes very deep and I assume it has something to do with Chris Ferguson's approach to the game. It is stuff like this that I am talking about: http://www.math.ucla.edu/~tom/papers/poker2.pdf
I'd like to see a practical application of such a theoretical approach.

I should add that one of von Neumann's game theoretical conclusions is, that his simplified poker model favors the player who is acting first. This is exactly the opposite of what we know as the advantage of acting last. Food for thought?

Re: Any review on the Gus Hansen and the Phil Gordon DVDs out yet?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I should add that one of von Neumann's game theoretical conclusions is, that his simplified poker model favors the player who is acting first. This is exactly the opposite of what we know as the advantage of acting last. Food for thought?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think it is well known (and discussed in books, etc.) that in a NLHE tournament the player who bets first often wins the pot. OTOH, seeing what happens in front of you before you act is very powerful as well. That is one of the elements of balance that I enjoy in a tournament.

The paper you reference doesn't seem completely tied in to what you're looking for. It is interesting, but is limited in scope. It is looking at a situation where each player has a number between 0 and 1 and some betting takes place, then the higher number wins the pot. The limitations are:

1. Heads up
2. Pre-flop only (the starting number between 0-1 is the only deciding factor in who wins)
3. Betting is restricted/structured

I doubt you are going to see much like this in any publication and there is near-0 chance of seeing this in a DVD. Not because it is "secret," but because it is above most people's heads. Even people who have done or looked at analysis like this are likely to publish the simplified conclusions rather than all the math behind those conclusions.