Thoughts on dropping out of school...
 

One issue that comes up a lot in these forums is young kids who are making large sums of money losing motivation and wanting to drop out of school. Generally people give responses like, "don't drop out of school, it's a bad idea."

It's something i have thought tons about, because the issue is very relevant to me, so i thought i would record my thoughts here, and hopefully the will help some people. First of all, i am a freshman at Bentley College. I have already made up my mind that i am going to at least finish my undergaduate degree, and attempt to maintain decent grades in school. In my opinion, if you are smart enough to be a top poker player, you are capable of balancing it with other parts of your life. The time when you play is flexible, and you can work around other obstacles.

Socially, i think it's hard to justify missing the college experience, it's a shitload of fun, and i know that I personally would have regrets for the rest of my life if i missed this experience. Also, having a financial alternative to poker is an excellent idea, and a good piece of mind.

I think some older people have trouble understanding the quandry some young players find themselves in. It's very difficult to be motivated to go to school when you make significantly more playing poker than you could expect to in the next 2 decades of your professional career. This kind of $$$ would skew anyone's perspective, let alone a kid, because it all just happens so fast. It is hard to give you're best effort to school, and that trivializes the eduational experience.

Personally, one of my goals next semester is to find a slightly better balance between poker and school. I think anyone who wants to do this can, and i kno its important to me. But not everyone is like, some people have different priorities.

Let me state unequivically that giving universal advice on this matter is ridiculous, each situation is different. If you are someone who forks over 35-40k a year for an education, doesn't attend class, and is in danger of failing out of school, then attending doesn't make much sense. If you literally cannot bring yourself to get to class, by all means drop out. You will save either you or your parents some serious $$$, and you will have time to make more money through poker as well as just relax because you have less responsibilities. I don't neccesarily think this is best, however i know there are some people who find themselves in circumstances similar to the aforementioned ones. In order for college to be a worthwhile expiernce, you have to at least want to get something out it.

I feel this was an important thing to write about because it is prevalent nowadays. I also feel i can relate well to some of these people because i am in the same boat. Dropping out of school would make me a lot of $$$. But i think i can make a lot anyway, and still have the college experieces that i want. If you are close to getting your degree, just grit your teeth and finish it out. If you still have a long way to go, i think you should try. But don't do it becaue a bunch of people on the internet had a good time in college and are telling you to, it's much different when you have a vialble alternative to finishing your education. Anything you want to do sucessfully in life will have to be done for the right reasons. Consider all the relevant factors and do what's best for you. Don't just think about $$$ though, we all know there is more to life than that.

Peace,

Gabe

Re: Thoughts on dropping out of school...
 

I feel the experiences I had in college are priceless.

Re: Thoughts on dropping out of school...
 

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One issue that comes up a lot in these forums is young kids who are making large sums of money losing motivation and wanting to drop out of school. Generally people give responses like, "don't drop out of school, it's a bad idea."

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It IS a bad idea. For most people.

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It's very difficult to be motivated to go to school when you make significantly more playing poker than you could expect to in the next 2 decades of your professional career. This kind of $$$ would skew anyone's perspective, let alone a kid, because it all just happens so fast. It is hard to give you're best effort to school, and that trivializes the eduational experience.

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I'd say a strong majority of people will make a whole lot more working at a job than they ever will make playing poker. This is similar to new college grads that enter the workplace and all of a sudden have more money than they know what to do with. Any college student with an inkling of an idea of their future will know that any money made playing poker (there are exceptions) is chump change compared to a professional career.

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Let me state unequivically that giving universal advice on this matter is ridiculous, each situation is different. If you are someone who forks over 35-40k a year for an education, doesn't attend class, and is in danger of failing out of school, then attending doesn't make much sense. If you literally cannot bring yourself to get to class, by all means drop out. You will save either you or your parents some serious $$$, and you will have time to make more money through poker as well as just relax because you have less responsibilities.

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If you devote your college career to being a failure, not much is going to help you from being a failure outside of college. Are you going to live with your parents for the rest of your life playing online poker and assuming no responsibilities of an adult? Not my kind of life.

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I feel this was an important thing to write about because it is prevalent nowadays.

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You're very right. Kids all over the country get delusions of grandeur, seeing all the young college guys on TV, and they think they have what it takes to drop out and play poker for a living. If it was that easy, everyone would be doing it and everyone would win. But wait, how can that be, aren't most players losers in the long run? After they realize they aren't as good as they think they are, what do they have left?

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I also feel i can relate well to some of these people because i am in the same boat. Dropping out of school would make me a lot of $$$.

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You make money from dropping out of school? If your parents pay for your education, are they just going to hand it over to you, as if it was yours to decide what to do with next? If you are working and paying for school, what's next? You wouldn't have the actual money, I'm guessing.

In regard to your thoughts on college experience, I would agree, they are priceless. People can still attend college and play poker but still miss out on the college experience. I was a victim of it for a semester myself, where I'd stay in my room playing poker all day and all night, taking breaks to eat and go to class. I hardly saw my friends or went out. I never made that same mistake again and just play sparingly now. I'm absolutely certain that lots of online players fall into this category, so it's not just the dropouts that miss the college experience, but those who play obsessively.

Re: Thoughts on dropping out of school...
 

nice post, im in your same shoes

in the summer I will prob. regret going to soph. year at tulane university just like I did this previous summer after freshman year...school sucks...

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By all means get your degree if you must.

In my personal experience, it's been useless (at least so far). I graduated two years ago (and probably only did because I did not learn to play poker till after I graduated [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]). Had overall GPA 3.98. What it really amounts to now is several years of hard work for nothing (except that yeah, my parents are pretty happy I did not drop out).

I don't know if it's a good idea to have a degree just in case, as an insurance of some sort. In fact, I believe I could get it 10 years later with the same success, when/if I decided I needed it.

As for fun, I am having as much fun playing poker for a living. Perfectly happy with this lifestyle.

Actually, in my case I don't really regret getting a degree that much, but only because I was really into doing research at the time. Thought that was what I want to do all my life (was mistaken, it turned out). I do regret not learning to play poker sooner though [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Guess everybody is different, but in my mind the only good reason to go to college is if you really want to, and will enjoy working with your degree eventually much more than you enjoy playing poker now.

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Jem,

why do you think a online poker player will live with his parents? You can rent a nice apartment/house for like $1500-4500 a month depending on your taste, and easily fit in your budget when you make 200k (again depends, but even 80k-million is possible) a year

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btw, why is it during mid-terms/finals this topic always comes into my head, and I edge towards dropping out...hmmm

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Don't take offense to think, but i'm guessing from the tone of your post you were making less than 200k/year playing. Its much different when 3 years of running average will make you more money than you will go through in the next 15 years. Part of my point is that it's not fair for people who have had negative experiences to force their will on others. There are plently of people who make boatloads and don't let poker control their life.

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There is two things I would maybe add to this.

Firstly you have to think of the future not just the now those making good serious money from poker can they do it longer term and will poker be there for them to do it longer term. Yes there will be forms of poker whatever happens but in 5-10 years time will you be able to be a multi table full time pro in the same way you are now. Are you capable of adapting as the game changes over the years, judging by the panic stations on here when Party split form Empire a lot are not.

Secondly ggbman in the post above mentions earning 200k a year for a few years will set you up for 15 years, I am not so sure it would maybe if you stay at the levels of expenditure the average 18-24 YO has. As you get older and end up with a partner and house and maybe kids etc etc you will find your expenditure increases and increases comparable to your earn. The amount you earn tends to get reflected in the areas you look to live in, the cars you want, holidays you take, the lifestyle overall you look to enjoy. Having said that the amounts people are earning now at that young age are giving a good start in life.

Edit to add

I realise at this age most people dont know what they want to do or where they want to go, poker can seem an easy option, but it may be in 10 years you think back I wish I had stayed and finished my schooling, its better to keep as many future options open now than to have big regrets later on just cos of a bit of laziness and lack of motivation (which all of us tend to have whatever we do). Even going to school I would think would leave a good few hours to make a decent whack form poker at the peak times. BUt I also realise school isnt for everyone (I left at 16) you have to think deep inside what you want.

Re: Thoughts on dropping out of school...
 

The last time I responded to a post like this I got flamed by a drunk dude. Can't pass up another chance at that can I? [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

All of us have probably heard at some point how much more high school grads make than drop outs on average and how much more college grads make than highschool grads on average. These figures are accurate. It used to be having a highschool diploma was proof enough to land a job, and now it's really a college degree. The problem of course is that real jobs pretty much suck most of the time. So why would anyone work hard to earn a degree only to work hard at a lousy job for 20-40 years?

One answer is that you shouldn't. Honestly, college isn't for everyone and if you can make a living and be happy with your life doing it, why not play poker? That's it, no lecture.

The more mercenary among us might even think, why not encourage MORE people to play poker for a living, most of them will lose and that's better for us right? But for those players who choose to drop out of college and can't make a living, what do they do? If they get lousy low paying jobs, that's less money into our tax base in the U.S. Poor people tend to use more government services, and that costs the rest of us money. I'm personally of the opinion that government SHOULD be helping poor people out (or anyone in need of help) and I'm comfortable paying my taxes to do so (and I don't choose to stop there). But we've seen in New Orleans how government can fail the poor when it matters most. So I would argue that we can LOSE in the long run by encouraging people who offer us short term gains to make bad decisions.

But as adults, it's up to us to make those decisions good or bad and live with the results.

I personally don't see the harm in spending the time to finish a college degree while playing poker. It may take a bit longer to finish and maybe your grades will suffer but most employers don't care what your GPA is as long as you finish. You'll have that degree just in case thing don't work out right away.

And not to beat a dead horse, but if you're young, healthy, and not really responsible for anyone but yourself, live a little and enjoy yourself. You'll regret it if you don't.

But keep in mind that you won't always be young and healthy. You might decide you want to start a family, buy a home, start saving for retirement or your kid's college education [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]. The biggest single benefit I can see from getting a degree and working at a job you may not love is that it makes getting all of these things easier. The young tough fearless kids may make excellent poker players but the old farts who aren't afraid to gamble either because they already have everything they want do ok too.

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Finishing college is definitely a good idea if you make the most of it and have a worthy major.

I did not make the most of it. I worked 40 - 50 hrs/wk during school and 60+ hrs/wk during breaks and summer. My friends were always partying and going on trips but I always had to work. It was an unfortunate necessity at the time but missing out on all the experiences is definitely a regret.

My degree was in business management. Not a difficult or extremely lucrative degree. Finding a job since I had a degree wasn't dificult. Finding one that paid decent was. My last job was as a manager for a convenience store paying a whopping 30k/ year. Since I made more from poker than my job for the last year and a half it wasn't a hard decision to quit my old job when many new responsibilities requiring many more hours of my time were demanded by the company where I worked.

I graduated in '93 so its not like I worked at one job for a couple years and then decided to play poker for a living. I have had other jobs and ran my own business for many years. Playing poker currently suits me best.

Overall, get a degree but at the same time make the most of the experiences available. You never know where life will take you. So don't pass up current opportunities.

Re: Thoughts on dropping out of school...
 

Here's some random thoughts....

- Stay in school.

- There's nothing that says you can't play poker AND attend college.

- When you're 18-21 yrs old - you have ZERO understanding of the relative value of money in the real world. What seems like at lot of money at 18 yrs old will seem like pennies in 10 years.

- Those not motivated enough to stay in school and complete a degree and not likely going to be motivated to adapt to a changing world of poker. When the games change and you aren't motivated to learn new strategies to beat them - then what are you gonna do? McD's?

- I don't think the previous item can be stressed enough. You got burned out on school - what makes you think you're not going to get burned out on poker.

- It's overstated, but true... You're going to regret not finishing your degree in the future.

- Don't think that if you leave now you'll ever return. Do you really want to be a lonely 35 yr old going back to college with a bunch of 18-20 somethings. All the older people I attended college with seemed miserable in life.

Re: Thoughts on dropping out of school...
 

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- When you're 18-21 yrs old - you have ZERO understanding of the relative value of money in the real world. What seems like at lot of money at 18 yrs old will seem like pennies in 10 years.

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You say this to a bunch of people who usually post at least a $2-$15 blind and don't bat an eye when they lose it? Poker players, if ANYTHING, undervalue money instead of overvaluing money.

I'm a freshman at UIUC right now, and I'm having trouble staying in too. I may take a break my first semester of sophomore year simply because it's hard to force myself to study. If I do complete school it will likely be in philosophy.

Re: Thoughts on dropping out of school...
 

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- When you're 18-21 yrs old - you have ZERO understanding of the relative value of money in the real world. What seems like at lot of money at 18 yrs old will seem like pennies in 10 years.

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You say this to a bunch of people who usually post at least a $2-$15 blind and don't bat an eye when they lose it? Poker players, if ANYTHING, undervalue money instead of overvaluing money.

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You misinterpreted my point. Right now you're income to cost-of-living ratio is very low. You make 1, or 5K, or 10K, or 30K per month and it costs a mere fraction of that to live off. What needs to be understood is how this ratio is going to increase over time. There are many factors at work here that I'm guessing most kids in this age group are simply incapable of predicting. That's not a rip on you or anyone else - it's just the way life works.

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I'm a freshman at UIUC right now, and I'm having trouble staying in too. I may take a break my first semester of sophomore year simply because it's hard to force myself to study. If I do complete school it will likely be in philosophy.

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My advice to someone in your situation is that (A) If you leave - there's a very high chance you won't return and (B) if you have to "force" yourself to study - you must not be getting educated in something that your passionate about.

Personally - I have trouble understanding why anyone would be going to school for something they didn't want to do in the first place.

Good Luck to you - I hope you figure it all out! [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]
Crunch

Re: Thoughts on dropping out of school...
 

Anybody who is considering dropping out of school or leaving a job to play poker should make their decision after they experience an extremely bad run. I am not talking about the usual downsings. I am talking about incredibly long stretches lasting several months.

Re: Thoughts on dropping out of school...
 

I don't feel like posting the entire story right now, but I might someday as I think I actually have something to add to these zillion threads.

I dropped out of college about 2-3 semesters away from my degree. It had nothing to do with poker, but it was a somewhat similar situation in some respects. I was studying CS and got a pretty incredible job offer that required me moving from the podunk state I grew up in.

some of my reasons:
- This was back in 1999 when there were some unbelievable oppurtunities to pull in the kind of money that 99.99% of pro poker players never dream of.
- I was working full time while going to school (primarily for financial reasons), and going to a commuter school, so the "good times" were considerably less than typical college experience.
- I was banking on getting enough experience/contacts during the boom years to float me afterwords. In 1999 if you could breath and knew how to spell HTML you could get any job you wanted and make a ridiculous amount of money, and I knew I was far better than most.

So here I am six years later. I have worked for four companies since quitting school, lasted through the big bust, and I currently have a great job with very good job security and am quite pleased with the money that I make. Anyone applying for my job off monster.com without a college degree would not make it past the receptionist, but in software referrals and networking are huge, and something catastrophic would have to happen for me to worry about job security - I can literally call a dozen people this afternoon and line up a job somewhere else. If my boss (or any of my former bosses) had to choose between an unknown MIT C.S. grad with five years experience and me, he would pick me. As far as social stigma there is some but to be honest when you tell someone you are a software engineer they just make assumptions and it basically never comes up. If I had to do it all over again I am positive I would make the same choices.

Despite all this, I'd say about 75% of the reason I'm studying this game is so I can quit working and go back to school. It makes every post I read from some kid dropping out of school pretty ironic; instead of "quitting school to play poker", my perspective is "playing poker to unquit school".

Dropping out of school to play poker, IMHO, is insane. I mean school isn't really all that time consuming and considering the fact that I was putting in 40-50 hrs/week while in school, I just can't figure out why you guys don't just suck it up, stay in school, and play poker for 20 hrs/week. makes no sense at all to me.


cheers, be cool stay in school

Re: Thoughts on dropping out of school...
 

Great post and perspective, jba.

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Why don't people take time off from school? I'm not making huge sums of money from poker, but I didn't want to be in school. So I took time off and travelled. I'll probably go back next year, but maybe not. Who cares? It will always be there.

-SmileyEH

Re: Thoughts on dropping out of school...
 

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btw, why is it during mid-terms/finals this topic always comes into my head, and I edge towards dropping out...hmmm

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Haha, at my school we consider jumping into the gorges [img]/images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img]

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college is fun. i graduated but i wanna go back.

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I dropped out of school after my sophmore year to play poker. First off, 200K+ a year is WAY MORE than I would make as an engineer. 2nd thing is the social aspect. My gf is in college, my best bud is in college, and they're the 2 I hang out with the most. I'm 21 and still go to college parties and go to college bars. I would say that college parties are more fun when you're out cause everyone wants to talk to the poker player.

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I'd say finish college, but that would probably just be the part of me that's bitter I can't make 20kK/yr playing poker talking. Do whatever you think is best for yourself. I would almost definitely drop out of college if I could make that much a year playing cards. In some ways, this situation makes me think of a college athlete turning pro early. Might as well get the most out of your ability while you can. You can always go back to college at a later time. Who knows how long you will be able to make 200k/yr playing poker. There's no guarantee that the games will be this good forever. Get while the gettin's good.

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I think it all depends on few things. First, how much more you would make by quitting school and playing poker full time, and secondly, if you have what it takes to keep that roll going, in terms of learning money management through investing.

I mean if you can make 500k~2M over next 2~3 years playing poker full time, I think someone smart enough to earn that much playing poker is very well capable of learning how to manage that kind of money to last them their life time. So why waste 4~5 years to study something you'd never need because you'd never need a job? You realize it will take you about 15 years or so to ever touch that kind of money down the road if you were to go to college and get some 40k/yr job.

On other hand, if you make 70k'ish max playing poker fulltime, it probably isn't worth it for you to go full time and ditch education because simply that kind of money won't likely last them long enough to make it worth while.

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You can always go back to college at a later time. Who knows how long you will be able to make 200k/yr playing poker. There's no guarantee that the games will be this good forever. Get while the gettin's good.

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yepp

Re: Thoughts on dropping out of school...
 

Gabe,
I think good things lie ahead for you with whatever your decision may be. Good luck in whatever you choose.

Mike

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theres no reason you cant make nearly that much playing poker and staying school. i took a full load every semester at a high workload school and still had tons of time on my hands. like enough time to go on monthlong benders and blow thousands playing poker. most of my semester was this: wake up at noon, play 2-4 and 3-6 all day, get drunk around 10, come back and play poker at 4. now, this was before i was even good at poker or was even making money.

if i can graduate with good grades from a good engineering school as a degenerate, you can certainly graduate as a professional.

you guys are way overestimating how hard and time-consucming school is.

Re: Thoughts on dropping out of school...
 

Gabe, I wish I had your maturity and outlook when I was your age. I feel like I would be a terrible person to give advice on this thread because I truly feel that if internet poker was around when I was 18 and making boatloads of money like some of these kids today do, there would be a strong case that I'll probably be wondering the same thing.

I hated school even though I was a straight A student pretty much throughout. I thought high school was a breeze and when I entered university I totally lost my focus. Much of my time were spent at the poker clubs and working rather than being in classes. Weekends were about getting high and partying.

I'm in the same boat as the other previous poster where he actually wants to go back to school. I've switched jobs so many times after graduating, now I want to go back to do what I really want to do. Having poker as a side income is nice.
The grass is always greener on the other side. Now after being away from school for so long I do miss it. All that said I'm glad I did stay but mainly because it was for the college experience. It was without a doubt the best time of my life. If I had missed that I would've really regretted it.