Getting away from middle set?
 

Is there any way to get away from this hand?

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (6 max, 5 handed)
BB ($402.56)
UTG ($200)
MP ($268.45)
Button ($210.10)
Hero ($260.25)

Preflop: Hero is SB with J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. Hero posts a blind of $1.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP calls $2, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises to $6</font>, Hero (poster) calls $5, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP calls $4.

Flop: ($20) 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
Hero checks, MP checks, Button checks.

Turn: ($20) 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $14</font>, MP calls $14, Button calls $14.

River: ($62) 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets 60</font>, MP folds, Button Raises to $120, Hero reraises all-in $180.25, Button calls $70.10

Final Pot: $490.35

Results in white below: <font color="#FFFFFF">
MP doesn't show.
Button has Ah As (three of a kind, aces).
Hero has Jd Jc (three of a kind, jacks).
Outcome: Hero wins $50.15 from side pot. Button wins $440.20 from main pot. </font>

Re: Getting away from middle set?
 

Well the converter messed up the river action, but it looks like your slow play unintentionally saved you from losing a lot more money then you did. I really don't know why you're complaining because there's no chance, given the way the hand played out, that you're getting away from this on this board especially.

Added River Edit: Ok so now that I see the river action, it's still tough to fold, but at the same time that flop check is extraordinarily suspicious and then the minraise on the river screams monster. Still, there's little chance I have the cojones to fold. Though 0% of players play AK like this. I guess smaller sets might, but yeah, I would feel really sick when I get minraised like that on the river and make the crying call as opposed to pushing it in.

Re: Getting away from middle set?
 

I doctored up the river action manually (damn converter).

Re: Getting away from middle set?
 

Yea, your slow play saved you money in this situation. However, set over set is just one of those hands that I'm going to always lose my stack on, and do everything I can to get all in on the flop.

With that in mind, I would maybe lead into the preflop raiser. I assume you were planning to c/r this time. Most of the time, the preflop raiser is going to have some hand like Ak/Aq, and if you lead, those type of hands typically raise you, making it much harder to get away from when you move in.

In this case, he had an overset - "tel aviv", as they say in Israel. But every time, I'm leading here, with the intention of getting as much in on the flop as I can.

Hope that helps!

Re: Getting away from middle set?
 

i think you played it OK. i would have just called the river minraise, because it's hard to put him on a hand you beat.

Re: Getting away from middle set?
 

His check on the flop would automatically make me really suspicious. More suspicious is his cold call on the turn, unless he's incorrectly drawing to a flush. Even a KK / QQ would lead out on the flop just because he has fold equity. When he minraises you on the end, what range of hands do you think he has? Would he raise preflop with AJ, 88, 33, or 44?

I'm sure I would have just called his reraise and save myself some money because I'm pretty sure I'm beat.

Re: Getting away from middle set?
 

I think the play was fine. The only place I see you possibly saving money here is on the river by just calling his reraise. Of course there was only one hand that beat you so I don't know that i would have just called myself. Tough beat.

Re: Getting away from middle set?
 

I should have added that he's an average to below-average player, who makes lots of loose calls preflop and beyond.

Re: Getting away from middle set?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'm sure I would have just called his reraise and save myself some money because I'm pretty sure I'm beat

[/ QUOTE ]

There is only one hand that beats you... and your playing a 6 max table where ppl play more hands more aggressivly. I don't see how anyone can be sure they are beat here.

Re: Getting away from middle set?
 

because he's the PFR and he slowplayed.

Re: Getting away from middle set?
 

Good point however i think that there are a lot of hands that Villian could reasonably do that with and think he has the best hand. AJ/A8s/88/A3s/A4s/J8s I can see someone raising these hands on th button to attempt a steal on the blinds. That being said...I do agree that calling the raise on the river was probably best.

Re: Getting away from middle set?
 

Dont think so. sorry, very difficult.

Re: Getting away from middle set?
 

I'm okay with losing set over set. When I hit middle or bottom set, I'm usually looking to get it all in the middle on the flop or thereafter. I don't care what my opponent did preflop or postflop. I'm getting my chips in the middle.

But I'm reading more and more on 2+2 that a little postflop poker could save me a lot of chips. I know it's hard to lay down a set and I'm not saying that you should fold at any time during this hand. I just think I personally need to think a little deeper about these hands as opposed to blindly pushing. If you have a strong read on your opponent and his range of possible hands are all ahead of you, you can at least consider calling down or folding.

Re: Getting away from middle set?
 

How many hands will he really raise only 3BB preflop, check the flop, call the turn, min-raise the river with? Very unlikely for any hand you're beating to check the flop. And his play is EXTREMELY consistent with top set. I probably just call the min-raise on the river and save myself some cash.

Re: Getting away from middle set?
 

this hand is a bit similiar to the thread I started where i hit a set of queens "turned a set of queens but dont know if I like it", but on that hand my villains hand was much more defined, cause he reraised preflop, on that hand I was out of position, flop was checked, turn was the Q, i checked and intended to go for the checkraise, but it was checked through again, on the river I bet out a pot size, and he minraised, so I just called could only put him on aces or a hand he wouldn't call my push with anyway, so why bother.

Re: Getting away from middle set?
 

I find it nothing short of hilarious that just a couple days ago someone posts a hand exactly like this, 90% of the responses are like "omg, a SET!!! SHOVE THE MONEY IN!!!!" and 10% were like "hmm, it looks like he's slowplaying a monster, either that or he's really weak; either way you're getting screwed if you try to play a big pot" and sure enough, the guy had a set of aces. And now we've got an identical hand posted, and once again everyone's saying "omg, a SET!!! SHOVE THE MONEY IN!!!!"

I mean, it just seems do damn obvious... when someone has clearly slowplayed something, and you don't have the nuts, then you've got to consider the fact that your hand might be no good. When the preflop raiser waits until the river to suddenly come to life... he doesn't have frickin top pair.

Re: Getting away from middle set?
 

I'm just curious, but how often do you fold to the minraise on the river in this situation rather than calling it?

Re: Getting away from middle set?
 

I'd like to know how often the players who say fold have actually folded second set on a boad with no obvious straights/flushes.

I'm also curious to know if any of the posters who seem to be advocating folding are also of the 'never fold kings preflop' school of thought.

Re: Getting away from middle set?
 

I would never have bet $60 on the river in the first place.

When I have a very good hand and my opponent is representing something better on the river, I call. Folding second set is too weak and pushing against someone representing the nuts is insane.

Teddy, I don't think you've got the spades, so I'm gonna go all-in...

Re: Getting away from middle set?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'd like to know how often the players who say fold have actually folded second set on a board with no obvious straights/flushes.

[/ QUOTE ]
I'd like to know where you see any player saying to fold. In fact, not a single person in this thread advocates a fold. Almost all of them advocate a call.

Re: Getting away from middle set?
 

I do believe soah implied that he would strongly suspect to be beat in this spot which therefore indicated he would fold, which is why I asked specifically what he would do. He was the only one though.

Re: Getting away from middle set?
 

[ QUOTE ]
How many hands will he really raise only 3BB preflop, check the flop, call the turn, min-raise the river with? Very unlikely for any hand you're beating to check the flop. And his play is EXTREMELY consistent with top set. I probably just call the min-raise on the river and save myself some cash.

[/ QUOTE ]

Let's see...

AJ, 88, 33

I was thinking most likely 33, and he would've paid me off with his whole stack, which is what I was going for.

Re: Getting away from middle set?
 

His preflop action is not at all consistent with 33.

Re: Getting away from middle set?
 

His flop and river actions are not at all consisten with AJ.

Re: Getting away from middle set?
 

How exactly did he lose less? He was stacked. Am I reading it wrong or what?

Re: Getting away from middle set?
 

Come on, this is a case of set over set. You should be getting stacked every time. The only thing I can say is that villain should have gotten your money before the river. Don't out think yourself everytime someone raises preflop and an ace flops while you have JJJ.

Re: Getting away from middle set?
 

I would be leading into the raiser like it was going out of style on the flop, thus losing all my chips there.

Had I taken this line, however, I would have put Villain on a set of aces with something like 80% certainty by the river miniraise, and probably called, then puked on my keyboard over my inability to make the great laydown.

Incidentally: It is not great poker to be stacked 100% of the time by set over set. It is "minimally acceptable" poker. Being a "great" player would involve an increasingly higher percentage of your stack over an increasingly higher percentage of these situations, within reasonable limits.

I think I would know by the river raise. A better hand-reader would know by the turn overcall, I think.

Re: Getting away from middle set?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I would be leading into the raiser like it was going out of style on the flop, thus losing all my chips there.

Had I taken this line, however, I would have put Villain on a set of aces with something like 80% certainty by the river miniraise, and probably called, then puked on my keyboard over my inability to make the great laydown.

Incidentally: It is not great poker to be stacked 100% of the time by set over set. It is "minimally acceptable" poker. Being a "great" player would involve an increasingly higher percentage of your stack over an increasingly higher percentage of these situations, within reasonable limits.

I think I would know by the river raise. A better hand-reader would know by the turn overcall, I think.

[/ QUOTE ]

I dont see a profitable fold here ever. This is lowstakes against inexperienced opponents who randomly make bad bets/raises and I see no reason to fold a set on this board.

Re: Getting away from middle set?
 

Ok, going back and looking it over again you do make sense but theres just so many hands that people overplay its not even funny. I can imagine a flat call on the river instead of reraising, but I don't see a laydown here.

Re: Getting away from middle set?
 

button obviously was dying to have his set cracked. you should lead the flop and try to beak somebody with AK or AJ all the time and if its set over set, then lose a stack and move on

Re: Getting away from middle set?
 

Whenever I see a Button raise preflop and then check through on an ace high board, chances are he's got 2 pair or better. It would just be too damn easy to steal here.

Re: Getting away from middle set?
 

[ QUOTE ]
button obviously was dying to have his set cracked. you should lead the flop and try to beak somebody with AK or AJ all the time and if its set over set, then lose a stack and move on

[/ QUOTE ]

Who's cracking a set of aces on this board? The only card I would be the least bit concerned about would be a ten.

Re: Getting away from middle set?
 

Half the deck makes a straight possible on the turn.

Re: Getting away from middle set?
 

All the money is going to the center. If the money is not going in then you are playing wrong.

Sometimes I can't believe how tight this forum is.

Re: Getting away from middle set?
 

[ QUOTE ]
All the money is going to the center. If the money is not going in then you are playing wrong.

Sometimes I can't believe how tight this forum is.

[/ QUOTE ]
Sadly, this was second "Can I fold middle set on straight/flushless board" of the week.

Re: Getting away from middle set?
 

[ QUOTE ]
All the money is going to the center. If the money is not going in then you or your opponent are playing wrong.

Sometimes I can't believe how tight this forum is.

[/ QUOTE ]

fyp

Re: Getting away from middle set?
 

[ QUOTE ]
"tel aviv"

[/ QUOTE ]
Ma haperush?
Af pa'am lo shamati et habitoi haze'.

(For those of you who don't know Hebrew - or can't undeerstand my transliteration, here is a translation:

What does that mean?
I have never heard that saying. )

Re: Getting away from middle set?
 

Reminds me, I'm sorry to say, of this hand I had 2 days ago.

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...mp;sb=5&amp;o=

Re: Getting away from middle set?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
All the money is going to the center. If the money is not going in then you are playing wrong.

Sometimes I can't believe how tight this forum is.

[/ QUOTE ]
Sadly, this was second "Can I fold middle set on straight/flushless board" of the week.

[/ QUOTE ]

Mmmm, was mine the first?

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...mp;sb=5&amp;o=

[img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]

Re: Getting away from middle set?
 

Villian's check behind on flop should have caught your attention, and then smooth call on turn should have raised flags. You're not playing against AK, 88, or 33 here. With middle set I'm pretty anxious to get my chips in as soon as possible.

That said, I can't advocate a fold, despite the fact that after his raise you can only really beat a bluff or VERY badly played lower set or AJ. You have to feel AA is the most likely hand.

The only comments I have on your play are the river bet was a little on the large side IMO (I bet closer to $45) and I call rather than 3-bet as your re-raise is ONLY getting called by AA.