Hawaiian Gardens - Floorman Screwup
 

I was in a 20-40 game at HG, and after a floorman's decision went against me, I racked up and stormed off in a huff. Here's what happened:

Preflop, UTG raised, guy to my right called, and I took four yellow chips (one bet) off my stack and extended my hand forward. Before dropping the chips in the pot, I picked up my cards with my other hand, said fold, threw them into the muck, and returned the four yellows to my stack. Before the woman to my left did anything, the guy to my right said "that's a bet." I objected and the dealer called the floor over for a decision.

Not only did the floor man say that it was in fact a bet, but he told me I had to put in the full bet of $40 (eight chips). I tried explaining to him why it wasn't a bet, but he kept insisting that "any forward motion means a bet."

I threw $20 in the pot, said that's all I was putting in, and left the game. I was pretty sure I was right at the time, but not absolutely positive. I've since reviewed Robert's Rules of Poker, and believe that the floorman screwed me out of $20.

Comments on his decision? If he was wrong, what should I say to him when I see him tomorrow?

Sparks

Re: Hawaiian Gardens - Floorman Screwup
 

You should say, "I am sorry."

Re: Hawaiian Gardens - Floorman Screwup
 

[ QUOTE ]
I was in a 20-40 game at HG, and after a floorman's decision went against me, I racked up and stormed off in a huff. Here's what happened:

Preflop, UTG raised, guy to my right called, and I took four yellow chips (one bet) off my stack and extended my hand forward. Before dropping the chips in the pot, I picked up my cards with my other hand, said fold, threw them into the muck, and returned the four yellows to my stack. Before the woman to my left did anything, the guy to my right said "that's a bet." I objected and the dealer called the floor over for a decision.

Not only did the floor man say that it was in fact a bet, but he told me I had to put in the full bet of $40 (eight chips). I tried explaining to him why it wasn't a bet, but he kept insisting that "any forward motion means a bet."

I threw $20 in the pot, said that's all I was putting in, and left the game. I was pretty sure I was right at the time, but not absolutely positive. I've since reviewed Robert's Rules of Poker, and believe that the floorman screwed me out of $20.

Comments on his decision? If he was wrong, what should I say to him when I see him tomorrow?

Sparks

[/ QUOTE ]

Most rooms have rulebooks that clearly specify what is considered a binding action anyway. Perhaps you could, like, read the one from Hawaiian Gardens.

Why the fuck where you picking up chips and moving them forward and then folding anyway? I hate when people do this.

Re: Hawaiian Gardens - Floorman Screwup
 

This is entirely room dependant. At Mandalay, any forward action with chips in your hand that crosses the magic line on the table is a bet. At Canterbury, you are free to tap the table with chips in hand, and it's a check.

Read the rules, and if necessary, apologize to the floor.

Re: Hawaiian Gardens - Floorman Screwup
 

In many cardrooms, a forward motion with chips in hand is considered a bet. This isn't necessarily what you'll find in robert's rules, but it is nonetheless a very common rule. If the cardroom uses this rule, and the floor uniformly enforces this rule at HG, then you did not get screwed, you simply made a rather unfortunate mistake. HG is not my usual stomping ground so I don't know what their rules are, but in most california clubs this will probably be the rule. In las vegas you'll find more diversity, but if there's a betting line, any forward motion with chips past that line will be a bet. In general, I believe a forward motion with chips past either the betting line (or your cards when there is no betting line) should be considered a bet.

There's a lot of grey area here, and I didn't actually see precisely what happened in your case, but from what I read I cannot be too upset with this particular floor's decision. I suggest you make your actions more clear in the future.

al

edit: after reading the other posts, apologizing might be a good idea if you want to be in good with the floor at HG. It's not a good thing to have a floorperson dislike you if you play at the same place all the time.

Re: Hawaiian Gardens - Floorman Screwup
 

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Why the BLEEP where you picking up chips and moving them forward and then folding anyway? I hate when people do this.


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Thank you! People often make these vague and unclear motions and try to find yet another shade of grey for yet another rule, thus driving many people, particularly ME, crazy! Actions at a poker table should be CLEAR not fuzzy.

al

Re: Hawaiian Gardens - Floorman Screwup
 

Am I the only one who thinks the floor let him off the hook for the other $20 he owed?

Re: Hawaiian Gardens - Floorman Screwup
 

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Actions at a poker table should be CLEAR not fuzzy.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hear hear. Holding your chips in front of your cards then folding is a lousy habit to get into, because as already noted many rooms will use that as the line. Why would you do that except as an angle shoot?

Re: Hawaiian Gardens - Floorman Screwup
 

Don't know about Hawaiian Gardens, but at Commerce, if you are unaware of a raise, you may withdraw your "call." That is, if the bet is 8 chips, and you put in 4, and are now told that it's 8 chips to you, the pot has been raised, you may withdraw your 4 if you were unaware the pot had been raised in front of you. As poster only had 4 chips in hand, at Commerce he could claim he didn't know the pot was raised and not be liable to put in the 4 chips.

[Of course, posters says he was aware of the UTG raise.]

Re: Hawaiian Gardens - Floorman Screwup
 

[ QUOTE ]
Am I the only one who thinks the floor let him off the hook for the other $20 he owed?


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It depends on if they allow him to play in the future.

When you come forward with chips you are indictating you would like to put money in the pot. If this was an honest mistake you should learn what is or isn't acceptable in a casino; if you were shooting an angle I hope they never let you back in the place.