5/10 River Raise
 

Whattaya think...FPS? Opponent is TAG (25/17/1.9)

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is UTG with A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
<font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, CO calls, Button calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, BB calls.

Flop: (8.40 SB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, CO folds, Button calls, BB calls.

Turn: (7.20 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, Button folds, BB calls.

River: (9.20 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>...

Final Pot: 13.20 BB

Re: 5/10 River Raise
 

Gildwulf,
What worse hands do you expect him to bet-call on the river here?

Re: 5/10 River Raise
 

I don't see a TAG donking this river with AJ, so I think I'm just peeling. I dont know of any worse hands that are bet/calling us here.

Re: 5/10 River Raise
 

Probably just KQ...I was more thinking I could get him to fold hands like TJ or QJ. I am also obviously folding to a raise here.

Re: 5/10 River Raise
 

I wouldn't raise the flop or the river. The flop raise rarely cleans up your outs but it's not worth the extra cost and risk, IMO. I don't think you're getting called enough by worse hands on the river, but it's decently close. He could have an oddly played KQ.

Re: 5/10 River Raise
 

If he has Two pair, I don't think there's any chance he made it on the flop or the turn. His line is LEAST indicative of a two pair.

Re: 5/10 River Raise
 

I would just call the river. His play is odd.

Re: 5/10 River Raise
 

[ QUOTE ]
Probably just KQ...I was more thinking I could get him to fold hands like TJ or QJ. I am also obviously folding to a raise here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, KQ is a possibility; I don't think his play is really consistent with TJ/QJ tho?

It's hard to put him on a range of hands here; it looks like a gutsy wa/wb of some sort, but why wouldn't he realize that he's pretty toast against most of your hand range? Without one of the several monsters on the board, he's a huge dog to your 88-AA, AK, KQ, AQ, AJish range. If he's smart enough to realize what sort of shape his hand is in, I think I'd rather just call.

Re: 5/10 River Raise
 

Dont like the river raise. The flush is unlikely since its a runner runner but any 9 now beats you and J9,T9,Q9 are all possible holdings as well as some 2 pair hands.

Ill just cal the river, pot is too big to fold

Re: 5/10 River Raise
 

I play it the same, but I just call the river!

Re: 5/10 River Raise
 

looks like he just went to rive with his backdoor flush.

Re: 5/10 River Raise
 

Dont raise river, otherwise i like it.

Re: 5/10 River Raise
 

[ QUOTE ]
I wouldn't raise the flop or the river. The flop raise rarely cleans up your outs but it's not worth the extra cost and risk, IMO.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't raise the river either, but I would probably routinely raise this flop. Could you embelish on your reasons why raising this flop is not such a good idea.

We have approximately 8.5 outs and we can play for a free card or fold out hands like A5, Q5, AT, QT? Is the reason we don't raise because they are unlikely to fold these types of hands, or that they just don't happen frequently enough to cover our equity deficit?

True

Re: 5/10 River Raise
 

river raise is atrocious

Re: 5/10 River Raise
 

[ QUOTE ]

I don't raise the river either, but I would probably routinely raise this flop. Could you embelish on your reasons why raising this flop is not such a good idea.

We have approximately 8.5 outs and we can play for a free card or fold out hands like A5, Q5, AT, QT? Is the reason we don't raise because they are unlikely to fold these types of hands, or that they just don't happen frequently enough to cover our equity deficit?

True

[/ QUOTE ]

we're probably getting threebet with a lot of the hands that you listed as wanting to fold, because those guys like to read pf raises as auto UI overs on these type of flops.

Also, the probability of a freecard is slimmer than usual, since a flop lead into the pfr is usually indicative of at least a pair, and you'll likely see a stopngo from that kind of hand.

I tend to raise this HU, check through the turn UI and call a river bet.

With this many players in though, there are tons of worse draws and pairs that could follow along behind us that we don't want to push out.

I like a peel and a turn reeval.

sometimes straightforward play is the most deceptive. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: 5/10 River Raise
 

...also, a tag could be anticipating a raise from us here with a weak made hand, hoping we'll clear the field.

Lets not help him out with that.

Re: 5/10 River Raise
 

[ QUOTE ]
river raise is atrocious

[/ QUOTE ]

posts like this are atrocious

Re: 5/10 River Raise
 

I'm not a big fan of raising the flop with overs these days, but I like this spot. He could be betting with a lot of hands or maybe an open ender, and we have extras like the gutshot and the bdfd to back us up. I think it's close though and I don't hate a call.

The river raise is pretty bad. There's no way in hell you have a 9 in your hand and he very well might. The only hands that are going to fold here are worse ones, and I don't know how much value you're going to get here from a T/J - most combos with a T or J have improved to beat you by the river...