Re: Why do we fold QTo from UTG?
 

If you really are in a situation where your raises are getting that much respect (i.e. everyone folds) that you want to mix it up against savvy opponents ... even then, I'd personally recommend other holdings (even something like 98s) over Q10o.

Barron Vangor Toth
Raw Deal co-designer
BarronVangorToth.com

Re: Why do we fold QTo from UTG?
 

what happens when there is a raise later on? now your in 2 bets and way behind.
what happens if you flop a queen and get raised?

Very nice analysis; n/m
 

n/m

Re: Why do we fold QTo from UTG?
 

[ QUOTE ]
According to Pokerstove hands like QTo and T9s have an equity edge against 9 other random hands. So what's the reasoning behind folding these from UTG?

[/ QUOTE ]

Showdown simulations, while useful for getting an idea of the relative value of hands, just don't tell the whole story for actual play. While it's true that if you and your nine opponents went all in preflop every time you have T9s or QTo, you would make money, this is not how you actually play out the hands. You and your opponents all have the option to fold, bet, call or raise on any of four betting rounds. With weak hands, you won't get much action when you're ahead, but you'll get plenty when you're behind. So, if you routinely play these hands in EP, you will likely win more than your fair share of pots, but lose money. Also consider that some of your equity will come from river cards and runner-runner miracles. In a real game, you aren't going to be sticking around for these. Acutally T9s, and other suited connectors, are good hands to occasionally open raise in EP in a tight game. It's not as bad a play as a lot of people think it is, it's easy to get away from them when they miss, and, if you do hit and show it down a few times. you will get more action when you raise your good hands. It should not be your default play, though. You're doing it mostly for table image, to loosen up, and, if you're lucky, tilt the rocks.

Re: Why do we fold QTo from UTG?
 

Position (both relative and absolute) modifies the value of a hand significantly. A hand that would definitely be profitable on the button is not profitable up front for that reason.

The source of this difference has been covered fairly well by other posters. The main problem you have is that you don't know how much it will cost you to see the flop. These two hands depend on implied odds for profitability. If you get raised preflop your implied odds diminish. The chance you will face a raise is much higher from up front than it is on the button (or, alternatively, on the button you already know that it costs too much and can safely fold).

Even if you get lucky and survive to the flop, you are still out of position. I forget the quantification of this disadvantage, but its a lot higher than most people think.

Someone mentioned open-raising with a hand like this for variety in a tight game. Even this is dubious, though, because 2 bets is just too much for either of these hands unless you get a lot of help (and T9s is helped a lot more than QT). Further, you will often get reraised, and now you are out of position, investing too much money into a pot that is now large enough to require further aggressive action.

When can you put yourself in this situation? When you play so much better than your opponents after the flop that you can overcome this severe disadvantage. Don't kid yourself, though--very few people play well enough to profitably do this. No, in tight games you are far better off with isolation raises in late position with marginal hands and blind steals--at least then you have the benefit of position and are not as likely to be reraised by someone behind you.

Conclusion: Marginal hands are marginal for a reason, and bad position makes most of them unprofitable.

Re: Why do we fold QTo from UTG?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Someone mentioned open-raising with a hand like this for variety in a tight game. Even this is dubious, though, because 2 bets is just too much for either of these hands unless you get a lot of help (and T9s is helped a lot more than QT).

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with openraising T9s if your opponents are playing super weak-tight or just respecting you too much in general. If shown down, it can give you a LAG image with some players and generate more action; if not shown down, you probably just stole another pot. It's usually a -EV play over the course of that particular hand, but could be a +EV play over the course of the entire session if you only do it under the correct circumstances.

T9s is probably better than QTo for this purpose, though. HU the only way the kicker is going to matter if you flop a pair of tens is if your opponent has precisely JT, and I'd rather flop a flush draw than TP4K if I've been 3bet. There is the fact that the Q might be an overcard, but I think improved straight and flush potential more than make up for that when you'll mostly be HU with a hand better than yours.

Re: Why do we fold QTo from UTG?
 

because q-10 cannot be played with confidence. the flop comes 2-7-Q. you bet. another calls. now what the hell do you do with your 10 kicker?

Re: Why do we fold QTo from UTG?
 

I mentioned open raising T9s against tight or weak-tight opponents. I don't think I would ever do this with QT off. With T9, if you don't steal the blinds, it's very easy to get away from it if you don't flop flush draw, oesd or two pair. QT will often get you a marginal top pair out of position, which is often too good to fold, but not good enough to play agressively. Note that the EP open raise with T9s is really an image play. It will probably be a net loser long term, or break-even at best by itself. But if you find your EP raises with premium hands are usually just getting the blinds, it can be a good play. You might steal the blinds. You might miss the flop and check fold. You might hit the flop and show it down. Either of the last two may induce your opponents to cold call or three-bet with a worse hand the next time you rase in EP with a pocket pair, AK, AQ, etc.

Re: Why do we fold QTo from UTG?
 

Consider 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] vs. A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] preflop. The fours will win 51.3% of the time, and only lose 48.1% of the time. Yet the AK is better unless you intend to go all-in pre-flop against what you know is AK. What happens the 7 times out of 8 when the fours don't make a set? You can call to the river and possibly make the minimal amount of money, but if an A, K, or flush hits, AK can raise, re-raise, etc. and maximize profit. The same is true with QT. Can you really be confident raising if you pair one of your cards? Even if you pair both, you could be up against a straight.

Re: Why do we fold QTo from UTG?
 

OK, I think we might be coming from the same place. Taking the worst of it to improve your image is definitely called for in some places. Just keep in mind the cost. There might be ways to do so that are either 0 EV or at least less negative, that's all I'm saying.