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- - 89o (http://archives2.twoplustwo.com/showthread.php?t=377033)

QTip	11-12-2005 02:28 PM

89o

I have a new db going on here, and just started at this table, so I don't know much of anyone here. Except I've seen the co show a lot of aggression in a few hands.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (8 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is SB with 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, 2 folds, CO calls, Button calls, Hero completes, BB checks.

Flop: (6 SB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (6 players)
Hero bets, BB folds, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, CO raises, Button folds, Hero 3-bets

QTip	11-12-2005 02:30 PM

Re: 89o

[ QUOTE ]
I have a new db going on here, and just started at this table, so I don't know much of anyone here. Except I've seen the co show a lot of aggression in a few hands.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (8 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is SB with 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, 2 folds, CO calls, Button calls, Hero completes, BB checks.

Flop: (6 SB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (6 players)
Hero bets, BB folds, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, CO raises, Button folds, Hero 3-bets

[/ QUOTE ]

After the flop play has been discussed, here's the rest of the hand:

, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, CO calls.

Turn: (9 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (4 players)
Hero checks, UTG checks, UTG+1 bets, CO calls, Hero calls, UTG calls.

River: (13 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (4 players)
Hero bets, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, CO calls.

Final Pot: 17 BB

I find my river bet humorous.

adsman

11-12-2005 02:34 PM

Re: 89o

Cleaning up some outs?

Dagger78

11-12-2005 02:54 PM

Re: 89o

The flop 3-bet is to clean up some outs correct?

Did you consider calling the flop raise so you could attempt a check-raise on the turn if you hit a pair?

River should just be check/don't overcall. I might consider calling a single bet but UTG+2 most likely hit the Queen.

QTip	11-12-2005 03:03 PM

Re: 89o

[ QUOTE ]
attempt a check-raise on the turn if you hit a pair?

[/ QUOTE ]

An interesting thought for sure. I just thought it would be more important to try to clear out some donk calling hands like A9 or J8 or something like that.

Dagger78

11-12-2005 04:04 PM

Re: 89o

Just a suggestion, 3-betting the flop is probably best though. Folding better 8's and 9's is nice and if they call it's for value.

QTip	11-12-2005 04:12 PM

Re: 89o

[ QUOTE ]
Just a suggestion, 3-betting the flop is probably best though. Folding better 8's and 9's is nice and if they call it's for value.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually knowing these hands make this hand very funny.

1 limper had A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]9 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 2nd had K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]Q [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] and the CO had T [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]T [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

TomBrooks

11-12-2005 04:26 PM

Re: 89o

FLOP:

I'd rather check/call the flop because:

- A bet from the SB where we are could fold some hands, whereas a bet from MP or LP might keep more people in. I doubt if we are going to win UI, so there is no need to knock anyone out.

- If a bet comes from our immediate left and gets a lot of calls we can checkraise for value.

- If our bet gets raised, it could knock some people out, and we don't want that.

QTip	11-12-2005 04:36 PM

Re: 89o

[ QUOTE ]
FLOP:

I'd rather check/call the flop because:

- A bet from the SB where we are could fold some hands, whereas a bet from MP or LP might keep more people in. I doubt if we are going to win UI, so there is no need to knock anyone out.

- If a bet comes from our immediate left and gets a lot of calls we can checkraise for value.

- If our bet gets raised, it could knock some people out, and we don't want that.

[/ QUOTE ]

There are boards on which checking a FF or an OESD is a good idea. This isn't one of them.

Sarge85

11-12-2005 04:38 PM

Re: 89o

[ QUOTE ]
I have a new db going on here, and just started at this table, so I don't know much of anyone here. Except I've seen the co show a lot of aggression in a few hands.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (8 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is SB with 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, 2 folds, CO calls, Button calls, Hero completes, BB checks.

Flop: (6 SB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (6 players)
Hero bets, BB folds, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, CO raises, Button folds, Hero 3-bets

[/ QUOTE ]

It's not terrible by any means, but I'm less inclined to do this on a flush board. I'd rather check-call. If it was rainbow, I'd do it all the time.

Sarge[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

Sarge85

11-12-2005 04:42 PM

Re: 89o

[ QUOTE ]
The flop 3-bet is to clean up some outs correct?

[/ QUOTE ]

The three bet is much more for value, than any outs were going to clean up with a check raise, after the players behind have already put money in.

Sarge[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

SenecaJim

11-12-2005 04:53 PM

Re: 89o

Definitely. I think this one is close 'cause can't count 5 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] or T [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] as full outs. But, still +ev with 3 others in.

QTip	11-12-2005 05:04 PM

Re: 89o

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I have a new db going on here, and just started at this table, so I don't know much of anyone here. Except I've seen the co show a lot of aggression in a few hands.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (8 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is SB with 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, 2 folds, CO calls, Button calls, Hero completes, BB checks.

Flop: (6 SB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (6 players)
Hero bets, BB folds, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, CO raises, Button folds, Hero 3-bets

[/ QUOTE ]

It's not terrible by any means, but I'm less inclined to do this on a flush board. I'd rather check-call. If it was rainbow, I'd do it all the time.

Sarge[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe I'm underestimating the impact of the 2 suits out there.

Sarge85

11-12-2005 05:11 PM

Re: 89o

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I have a new db going on here, and just started at this table, so I don't know much of anyone here. Except I've seen the co show a lot of aggression in a few hands.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (8 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is SB with 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, 2 folds, CO calls, Button calls, Hero completes, BB checks.

Flop: (6 SB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (6 players)
Hero bets, BB folds, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, CO raises, Button folds, Hero 3-bets

[/ QUOTE ]

It's not terrible by any means, but I'm less inclined to do this on a flush board. I'd rather check-call. If it was rainbow, I'd do it all the time.

Sarge[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe I'm underestimating the impact of the 2 suits out there.

[/ QUOTE ]

yes and no.

It's similar to waiting for a safe turn card to raise thinking. But with a draw....

Sarge[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

QTip	11-12-2005 05:16 PM

Re: 89o

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I have a new db going on here, and just started at this table, so I don't know much of anyone here. Except I've seen the co show a lot of aggression in a few hands.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (8 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is SB with 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, 2 folds, CO calls, Button calls, Hero completes, BB checks.

Flop: (6 SB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (6 players)
Hero bets, BB folds, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, CO raises, Button folds, Hero 3-bets

[/ QUOTE ]

It's not terrible by any means, but I'm less inclined to do this on a flush board. I'd rather check-call. If it was rainbow, I'd do it all the time.

Sarge[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe I'm underestimating the impact of the 2 suits out there.

[/ QUOTE ]

yes and no.

It's similar to waiting for a safe turn card to raise thinking. But with a draw....

Sarge[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

A friend of mine just point out that the 2 suits not only make it awkward for me when a dimaond falls on the turn, but also makes it more likely that I'll get callers behind me. I'm liking the 3 bet less and less with the 2 flush cards out there. However, I do still like the initial flop bet. Maybe that will change in 2 more posts as well [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Carmine

11-12-2005 07:52 PM

Re: 89o

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The flop 3-bet is to clean up some outs correct?

[/ QUOTE ]

The three bet is much more for value, than any outs were going to clean up with a check raise, after the players behind have already put money in.

Sarge[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

I play much more 3/6 than 2/4 and realize 2/4 is much looser, but is a 3-bet really for value when we face the ep players with two more cold? Now if they are two big fish that's a different story.

The flop lead I like "in this case" because you list the CO as the more aggressive player so we are looking to trap players which worked. However I have done this often in the past and when it's the BB or EP player raising it really sucks to be isolated with a draw so it's always a risky proposition. Generally if the table is pasive I lead but with aggresive tags that will raise in big pots "to clean up outs" etc. I tend to check and hope.

11-12-2005 08:50 PM

Re: 89o

[ QUOTE ]

There are boards on which checking a FF or an OESD is a good idea. This isn't one of them.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm interested in your view here.

I expected the flop bet to be because of CO, not so much the board.

QTip	11-12-2005 09:04 PM

Re: 89o

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

There are boards on which checking a FF or an OESD is a good idea. This isn't one of them.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm interested in your view here.

I expected the flop bet to be because of CO, not so much the board.

[/ QUOTE ]

Both. We had a thread on this about 2 months ago. Certain flops are more likely to be bet by someone else or raised to your left.

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