a fourth street play - $3/6 Stud High
 

Comments, please, particularly on 4th and 5th (edit - looking at the hand again, 6th is very debatable as well). I hadn't been at the table very long and had been raising liberally on 3rd. Given my loose image and the K showing up on fourth, I decided to check fourth with the intention of betting out on 5th if boards weren't scary. Thanks.


7 Card Stud High ($3/$6), Ante $0.50, Bring-In $1 (converter)

Seat 1: $678.85
Seat 3: $192.50
Seat 4: $66.02
Seat 6: $237.14
Hero: $144.50

3rd Street - (0.83 SB)

Seat 1: xx xx T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 3: xx xx 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 4: xx xx 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 6: xx xx 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___brings-in___calls
Hero: 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___completes

4th Street - (4.83 SB)

Seat 1: xx xx T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___checks
Seat 4: xx xx 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___checks
Seat 6: xx xx 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___checks
Hero: 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___checks

5th Street - (2.42 BB)

Seat 1: xx xx T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___checks___folds
Seat 4: xx xx 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___checks___calls
Seat 6: xx xx 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___bets___calls
Hero: 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___raises

6th Street - (8.42 BB)

Seat 4: xx xx 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___checks___calls
Seat 6: xx xx 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___bets
Hero: 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___checks___calls

River - (11.42 BB)

Seat 4: xx xx 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] xx___bets___calls
Seat 6: xx xx 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] xx___raises
Hero: 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___checks___folds

Total pot: (15.42 BB)

Results:
Main Pot: $90.50 | Rake: $2

Seat 4: [ 8d 9h 9s Kh 2d Jc Jd ] [ two pairs, jacks and nines -- Kh,Jc,Jd,9h,9s ]

Seat 6: [ 3s 4s 5s 7d Ts 6s Jh ] [ a flush, ten high -- Ts,6s,5s,4s,3s ]

Re: a fourth street play - $3/6 Stud High
 

The check on 4th is horrible
The raise on 5th is fine
The check on 6th is horrible, unless you were planning on dumping the hand...in that case it was fine

River - fine.

P.S.- Your reasoning on 4th is flawed.. That was an auto-bet....

Happy Holidays,

CJ

Re: a fourth street play - $3/6 Stud High
 

The check on fourth is terrible. The only reason you should be checking fourth is with the intention of raising, and your position doesn't allow you to do so. If instead your K-9 was high, then checking could be feasible, but it still depends on whether you think you will get someone late to act to bet. Here you need to bet (and hope you get raised by the player to your left).

Re: a fourth street play - $3/6 Stud High
 

You can not risk giving a free card to 3 other players. Your hand is a strong holding but not invincible. Heads up, you might want to try a check raise there, but not with 3 chasers on 4th. 5th strt raise looks ok. check on 6th is smart as it looks like he made flush. Fold on river is excellent.

It is not clear if a bet on 4th by you would have changed the outcome but nonetheless, they are on your tail. Most situations call for straight forward play and not trickery. And if all your plays are trickery, then is anything you do trickery?

Re: a fourth street play - $3/6 Stud High
 

[ QUOTE ]
And if all your plays are trickery, then is anything you do trickery?

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly!

[img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

Re: a fourth street play - $3/6 Stud High
 

Thanks for the responses thusfar. I should explain my reasoning behind the fourth street check (although maybe it doesn't change the fact that it was wrong).

It wasn't a slowplay by any means or an attempt at deceit. I thought a bet would result in three callers. I thought if I could keep the pot small with a check on fourth, a lead out on 5th might be more effective. (the small bet on 4th with a dead board and so much in the pot already won't clear too many out in the 3/6 game).

I was indecisive on 6th. I put villain on two pair with lots of drawing potential and wanted to see the river cheaply. (a raise would put me in a bad spot). Anybody like check-call here?

- Mac

Re: a fourth street play - $3/6 Stud High
 

Haven't read the other responses. Third is fine. Definitely bet fourth. Fifth is fine. Probably bet sixth. Seventh is fine.

Re: a fourth street play - $3/6 Stud High
 

[ QUOTE ]
Probably bet sixth. Seventh is fine.

[/ QUOTE ]

I know nothing about stud high, but is it standard procedure not to give Seat 6 credit for the flush (or a straight) here? From my inexperienced point of view, it seems like Hero should fold 6th even if Seat 6 is still on a draw to either. I can't imagine betting here with only KK. Would it be only to ensure he's really got the goods?

Re: a fourth street play - $3/6 Stud High
 

Not betting fourth isn't terrible ... I agree with Mac here, most of the time you're getting 3 callers, 2 callers 100% of the time.

Re: a fourth street play - $3/6 Stud High
 

While one of the reasons to bet is to thin the field, another reason for betting is for value. You have the best hand and you need to get the most for it. Yes, it is difficult to have 3 people chasing you, but you have the best hand now and you need to get as much for it as possible and make each chaser pay for their draw.

Re: a fourth street play - $3/6 Stud High
 

[ QUOTE ]
I thought if I could keep the pot small with a check on fourth

[/ QUOTE ]
Don't give free cards to drawing opponents, it's a cardinal error in any poker form. You absolutely have to bet here.

Re: a fourth street play - $3/6 Stud High
 

Well the good news the guy in seat 4 played it worse.

I understand your desire to keep the pot small on 4th to reduce the pot odds on the latter rounds but becuase it is a 4 way pot the money is already in the pot to give pot odds for a 4 flush to take a card on 5th street, hence it is better to bet out for value.

5th street is the key decision when seat 6 springs to life you must either pump it or dump it and once you are called in 2 spots a pair of Kings is in trouble particularly as you have a lot of dead cards.

6th street this is over you cannot be winning dump it you have very little scope for improvement and if seat 6 has a flush or straight you are drawing dead, even if they have 2 pair you are drawing pretty thin.

At least you got away from it at the end.

regards


Ross

Re: a fourth street play - $3/6 Stud High
 

Construct a hand that gives the aggressor a straight on sixth. I'm not overly worried about the flush, but if you want to check sixth, go ahead.

Re: a fourth street play - $3/6 Stud High
 

Well, sometimes you can bet on fourth, and then they'll fold on fifth anyway.

Re: a fourth street play - $3/6 Stud High
 

I'm a little unsure why you're not concerned about the flush on 6th. What else could he have that he is calling throughout the hand? On 6th, The flush is the most likely hand. Betting into it does not seem wise here. You will just get reraised. What hand are you putting that player on that you want to bet into him?

Re: a fourth street play - $3/6 Stud High
 

4th street is usually a bet, but against the right type of players checking here is probably more profitable. I check fold 6th a fair amount of the time.

Re: a fourth street play - $3/6 Stud High
 

I usually don't get concerned about flushes until it's too late. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] The other guy's play has been consistent with a flush draw, but he could merely have sensed weakness on fifth and decided to try to buy the pot. Again, I'd probably bet sixth, but I certainly don't think that checking is terrible.