Regarding blind defense in 6max
 

I see a lot of posts regarding this, but I can't help but think that anything said about it is pretty much worthless if you don't take the rake structure into account as well as the blind structure (especially if you aren't playing the upper limit games online). How can any comments be worthwhile if they don't consider this? I'm trying to learn this aspect of play ATM but everything I read feels like it will simply lead to fundamental errors later.

Has anyone developed some sort of graph that accurately shows where cutoff points for your call/bet/raise points vs certain hand ranges change based on the rake and blind structure? Or is everyone simply winging it?

Re: Regarding blind defense in 6max
 

[ QUOTE ]
Has anyone developed some sort of graph that accurately shows where cutoff points for your call/bet/raise points vs certain hand ranges change based on the rake and blind structure? Or is everyone simply winging it?

[/ QUOTE ]
How about neither?

HU - as a lot of blind defense situations are - is a very read-dependent type of game. Obviously the blind structure is important, but a lot of the posts you see dealing with HU get more into general concepts and theory, simply because each situation is so unique.

This is somewhat diminshed in steal situations because its not pure HU, but a lot of the same stuff applies. In 15/30 you'll find yourself completing from the SB a ton more than in 3/6, obviously, but will someone just hand you a chart saying, "In case A, do B?" No. Does that mean everyone is "winging it?" No.

There are so many factors involved, it would help if you would post the limits you're playing, so you can get better feedback.

Also, for most limits the rake structure isn't nearly as important as the blinds.

Re: Regarding blind defense in 6max
 

you cant calculate EV based on hot and cold preflop equity, because so much of blind defense considerations are based on postflop scenarios. i cant tell you how handX plays against handsA-G postflop, and certainly noone can tell you how YOU would do with handX against that range. its a pretty easy task to assign hand ranges to an opponent and calculate hot and cold preflop equity. you can do this using pokerstove if you find this information helpful, but in reality its only a minimal utility in coming to blind defense conclusions. because we cannot base postflop scenarios on a mathematical scale, all close situations come down to judgment and nothing else. you should check out the Nigel thread because that pretty much covers the bulk of this. they are interested in combining databases to determine profitability in blind defenses, and that is really the only legitimate way to come to any progress in this matter.

Re: Regarding blind defense in 6max
 

Obviously hand equity isn't enough to determine everything we need to know. However, it seems that there are so many marginal situations where the decision comes down entirely to what the rake and blind structure are. I'm simply wondering:

A) If there isn't a formula/graph that shows how far ahead equity-wise you generally need to be in order defend if you make the assumption that both players are equally skilled. Basically how the % of rake changes the % of hands you need to defend with.

B) Also while this is basically the opposite of the 1st, what ranges worth attempting to steal based on how far off the player in the bb is off in his defense % (again taking into account the rake and blind structure).

Re: Regarding blind defense in 6max
 

The rake is an extremely crucial, essential variable in deciding whether a hand is worth stealing with, and, in the blinds, if it's worth defending with. A ton of hands that would be marginal winners in a timed game become folds in raked game.

Analysis based on actual PT win rates circumvent the rake problem becuause the rake is already factored in the win rate. Same with simulation analysis where you can create a rake structure. Theoretical analysis would need to factor the rake in to be accurate.

Having said this, I don't see what the big problem is since I haven't seen ANY precise analysis of blind defense. People have only posted rough guidelines for what to steal with/what to defend with.

But I do agree that rake is a huge factor.

Example:

Assume average rake in a blind defense situation in a 10-20 6 max game is $1.50.
Assume you win 1/3 of the time with your defense.
That means 1/3 of the time you pay $1.50 in rake, 2/3 of the time you pay nothing.
If the EV of your defense in a timed game was less than 50 cents, then it would have a negative EV in this raked game.

This implies that a ton of marginal hands will become unplayable in a raked game.

-v

Re: Regarding blind defense in 6max
 

I'm somewhat of a dolt becuase I somehow didn't realize that the stats people were using already factored int he rake, but my question still is unanswered because I don't know which site the stats are from (or more specifically the structure of the game).

Re: Regarding blind defense in 6max
 

[ QUOTE ]

Has anyone developed some sort of graph that accurately shows where cutoff points for your call/bet/raise points vs certain hand ranges change based on the rake and blind structure? Or is everyone simply winging it?

[/ QUOTE ]

Noone has enough data for the particular points to be relevant. To some degree it also depends on postflop skill. The recent rake increase is a good example. From a theoretical perspective, we all should have cut down on blind/steal blind/defense but since noone knows where the lines are, we just keep going on playing our same games. (Which I think is fine)

Krishan - 13