Fancy play syndrome - take two
 

On the river I'm very sure villain does not have a J, and I want it to look like I do. Is this a good play every now and again or just chip spewing?

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (6 max, 5 handed) converter

saw flop|<font color="#C00000">saw showdown</font>

<font color="#C00000">Hero ($99.05)</font>
SB ($99.75)
<font color="#C00000">BB ($85.49)</font>
UTG ($106.71)
<font color="#C00000">MP ($0)</font>

Preflop: Hero is Button with A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. SB posts a blind of $0.50.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $4</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, BB calls $3.

Flop: ($8.50) J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $6</font>, BB calls $6.

Turn: ($20.50) J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
BB checks, Hero checks.

River: ($20.50) 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets $7</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $21</font>...

All comments welcome.

The Doc

Re: Fancy play syndrome - take two
 

bet the turn

Re: Fancy play syndrome - take two
 

I dunno, villain played the hand like I would expect many players at this level to play a jack. Of course, that wasn't your question, so disregard this at your leisure. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Re: Fancy play syndrome - take two
 

I dont like it, its very likely that villain has a J.
I like it up until the river.

Re: Fancy play syndrome - take two
 

I agree with other responders; this is exactly how weak players play a J. I guess he didn't have one given the tone of your post, but still risky.

That said, this play is a very big part of my game against weak players. It works much better when they make it clear that they don't have the trips i.e. betting out quickly into a paired flop with no draws possible. Against weak players this is almost 100% a pure bluff or two pair, and most weak players have learned that a call on the flop followed by a raise on the turn here means trips, and they tend to think for a while and proudly fold.

Re: Fancy play syndrome - take two
 

[ QUOTE ]
On the river I'm very sure villain does not have a J, and I want it to look like I do. Is this a good play every now and again or just chip spewing?

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (6 max, 5 handed) converter

saw flop|<font color="#C00000">saw showdown</font>

<font color="#C00000">Hero ($99.05)</font>
SB ($99.75)
<font color="#C00000">BB ($85.49)</font>
UTG ($106.71)
<font color="#C00000">MP ($0)</font>

Preflop: Hero is Button with A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. SB posts a blind of $0.50.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $4</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, BB calls $3.

Flop: ($8.50) J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $6</font>, BB calls $6.

Turn: ($20.50) J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
BB checks, Hero checks.

River: ($20.50) 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets $7</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $21</font>...

All comments welcome.

The Doc

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you trying to represent quad Jacks? Other than that hand, what could you possibly hold that you would have raised to $4 preflop with? AJ?

I think this play is unlikely to work against a thinking opponent, but that doesn't mean that it would work quite a bit depending on competition.

Re: Fancy play syndrome - take two
 

if the villian is the same guy as the last one then this play is so bad. You can't make moves forever. The only thing I could see being worse than that is if you were showing these

I hate any strategy that is always trying to make a play at a pot. I stay agressive but these double and triple barrel bluffs aren't really +ev

I hate this play, you may have won but I still don't like it. Do you really need to do stuff like this to win at 50$ NL?

Re: Fancy play syndrome - take two
 

[ QUOTE ]
Are you trying to represent quad Jacks? Other than that hand, what could you possibly hold that you would have raised to $4 preflop with? AJ?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm the button in a 5 handed game. I'm raising anything from 9J to AJ here.

The Doc

Re: Fancy play syndrome - take two
 

[ QUOTE ]
bet the turn

[/ QUOTE ]

If I bet the turn it's too easy for villain to c/r with just a flush draw or straight draw trying to represent a J (and has plenty of outs if I stick around).

The Doc

Re: Fancy play syndrome - take two
 

[ QUOTE ]
if the villian is the same guy as the last one then this play is so bad.

[/ QUOTE ]

He's not.

[ QUOTE ]
Do you really need to do stuff like this to win at 50$ NL?

[/ QUOTE ]

Nope. Nor at 100NL either. But every so often I like to try things like this when the situation feels right.

The Doc

Results
 

Well, I don't think villain saw that the turn paired the board.

Villain instantly called with T [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]3 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] for 3 pair and MHING. I'm not convinced the play is bad however.

The Doc

Re: Results
 

Three pair. A hand that people just can't seem to let go of, despite it never being quite as good as it looks. [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

Re: Fancy play syndrome - take two
 

People represent at $50 NL :O That guy didn't look capable of representing anything.

That being said, would trip-jacks min-raise the river?

EDIT: not in general, just at these T/W stakes.

Re: Fancy play syndrome - take two
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
bet the turn

[/ QUOTE ]

If I bet the turn it's too easy for villain to c/r with just a flush draw or straight draw trying to represent a J (and has plenty of outs if I stick around).

The Doc

[/ QUOTE ]

if villain is good enough to do this, give the man the pot. i think AK is good, and when you're c/r, you're not. pot it on the turn.

BTW, your river raise represents exactly JT, JJ, or TT, which I dont know if you'd play it like that, but how it looks. Problem is villain is getting like 4:1 on a call; may be too stupid to see what you're representing; and will never fold trips here. (Or obviously a boat)

Aj, (any jack), probably an overpair, etc. (whatever you're betting on the button pf with) would bet this turn so either you're afraid of top pair pairing or you've boated up.

If he folds I think ace high was good anyway. Too narrow a range (Ten, 3, or mid pp) that you want to fold out w/ your raise. He prolly will look you up anyway just because raising the river is peculiar. (Just read results, really doesn't surprise me)

Anyway... when you have ace high (earlier question) on a draw heavy board, you're not really looking to get to showdown cheaply. (like a big pocket pair MAY do, although shorthanded I'd still bet this turn because a flop call could be so many things not just top pair) So you dont care if you're checkraised. If you are you're folding 4 outs to a straight on a paired board. With top pair pairing your over outs may not be good. You could be drawing dead now.

Anycase, a bet on the turn is for protection, you likely have the best hand, if you're checkraised it's time to reevaluate, and normally I decide I'm no good. Problem is when he calls and a blank hits and he bluffs... Do you pick him off with ace high?

Re: Fancy play syndrome - take two
 

[ QUOTE ]
BTW, your river raise represents exactly JT, JJ, or TT

[/ QUOTE ]

I think it represents a much wider range than that.

Off the top, if I do boat on the turn I probably bet small enough to keep a flush or straight draw around. I definitely don't check.

Secondly, let's say I make trips on the turn and I know he has a flush draw (or straight draw, doesn't really matter for the purposes of this example). I'm still vulnerable against either draw, and thus I need to bet, and most draws fold for a 1/2-pot bet or so on the turn. And so I make nothing. But I also know if I check the turn he will put me on unpaired overs and bluff the river a large percentage of the time even if he misses. Then it becomes correct to sometimes check trips because I can make more on the river. And if he hits his draw at the same time that I fill I can make even more.

If this analysis is true then I can play a missed AK (or any hand with outs) in largely the same way, except rather than _snapping off_ his river bluffs with trips (or even one pair type hands), I can raise his river bet whether I hit or not. I can use optimal bluffing strategy (straight out of ToP) to make this river raise enough of the time that the villain can never call profitably.

Of course the villain in this hand doesn't know any of this and looked me up with three pair. C'est la vie.

The Doc