boring basic crap hand I was thinking about in the shower
 

5 handed online. You don't know anything more about the sb other than he seems decent. No history.

He opens in the sb, you call with QJo in the bb. I'm sure sometimes you 3 bet and sometimes you call. I go in phases. Lately I probably 3 bet 65% call 35%. Before it was probably more calling than 3 betting. I think a lot of it has to do with metagame/how previous hands have gone/your image...that should dictate what to do here...Either way, I call this time.

Flop comes AA3r. He bets, you call.

Turn T. He bets, you call.

River 9. Are you folding to a third barrel? Call every time? Sometimes call sometimes fold...and if so typically what %'s? Raise because he might fold a king high or a pair of 5's or something?

Should the hand have ended on the flop?

Raise the turn? Raise the flop?

There's probably some math that can help us with this one...regaurding his range of hands and how much we're going to have to put in to see his hand. Also complicating matters...what if he checks the turn and you decide to bet and he c/r. You're probably going to fold. You could 3 bet. Or you could take a free/one bet showdown by checking behind. Or mb he folds to your bet. If you want to do the math with pokerstove or whatever go ahead, I'd be curious to see the numbers...but I think a lot of poker gets 'over-mathed' and during hands you often 'just act' instead of trying to think back to some math you saw...which probably didn't quite apply to this situation anyhow. Maybe I'm wrong.

I'm just curious how other people are handling hands like this...because they come up often enough when you 'call' pre-flop and mb that's a good reason to 3 bet more than call...but then again when you flop a pair you often get paid better by just calling pre-flop imo. You can also represent more hands and get a better hand to fold more often when you call vs 3 bet. What about if he checks the river? Take the showdown? Hope he folds a small pair or K high?

Re: boring basic crap hand I was thinking about in the shower
 

i do think raising is better than calling. your play is very much in line with a slowplay so its hard for him to pay off with K high. sometimes he might even fold a small pair. the bet is pretty fearless, and often fearless bets come with a plan to fold to a raise. if he was geniunely fearful with his K9 he would probably check-call you. still, the majority of the time you'll be shown Ax, KK-99. his K high hands hed likely check-call. as for a pure bluff, he mightve given up by now. not a great board for that. i think this is a fold. i think your preflop-flop-turn lines are fine. flop might be a fold depending on the player but many are loose enough that you have enough outs and can sometimes take it down improved. you also have some outs to let you peel on the turn, like the T. and i dont think he will fire 3 barrels with an A on the board, so you might have an easier time than usual getting to sd if your hand is best

Re: boring basic crap hand I was thinking about in the shower
 

I haven't read the replies yet (the right answers) but here is my thoughts.

I totally agree with you preflop on your thoughts of 3 betting or calling. If I have no reads and not many hands, then I go on this, if the table has been folding a lot to the blinds, I'm 3 betting, if it's been normal or lots of limpers and now it's folded, I'm calling.

I think for this hand if you want to win it (the cheapest way) I would probably aim at raising the flop and betting the turn. If he check/raises the turn, I'd fold and have spent 2 BBs. If he SnG on the turn, I'd fold thus 1 BB. If he 3 bets the flop, I'd fold, thus 1 BB.

If we take the approach of call flop, raise turn, if he 3 bets us on turn we can fold but it cost us 1.5 BBs and we didn't win. I think the problem comes if he calls, now we have 1.5 BBs and near no chance of winning on the river unless we bet so that is 2.5 BBs and the chance he calls with 9s compared to calling our turn raise and calling river with a high card.

When you say he seems decent, a decent is gonna raise more than just with an A in the hand. If I knew he would raise things like T9, 76, 97, then I would probably just call preflop, raise flop and bet turn. If I thought he was raising mostly good cards, I'd call flop and raise turn cause I think he may even lay down Ts-Qs here (a lot of players seem to not fold Ks).

FYI, I like these types of hands.

Re: boring basic crap hand I was thinking about in the shower
 

I don't think this is boring basic crap at all. I think this is very advanced poker, and I wish I knew how to handle these situations better.

Knowing absolutely nothing about the guy, raising the flop is obviously a sign of weakness. Raising the turn is an option, tho what would you do if he reraises? Fold and miss your draw for a gutshot?

What I tend to do is if it's a full game (and I didn't reraise pre-flop), I'm more likely to just fold the flop and wait for a better spot to make my money. Real short, I would continue to play, sometimes call and sometimes raise. (even tho raising is usually a sign of weakness here, he may just decide to give up with his 97s, which would make your life a little easier.) And I'm more likely to raise if I have a backdoor flush draw.

5-handed is right on the cusp. I think I would alternate between folding, calling and raising here equally.

(Your post reminded me of a hand that I misplayed horribly a while ago. I raise in SB w/ KQ, BB reraises and I call. Flop comes AAx. Now I know that this villain will very likely check the turn without an A. Yet despite this, for some bizarre reason (probably cause I was involved in another hand at another table), I decided to fold to his flop bet thinking 'oh, if he has an A, I'm drawing dead, and if he has a pair, I'm still just drawing' even tho the better side of me recognized that 1. I may have the better hand and 2. MOST IMPORTANTLY, this guy will likely check the turn without an A.
Despite that knowledge, I still suffered a brain seizure and folded the flop.

Re: boring basic crap hand I was thinking about in the shower
 

I like your thoughts and play on the first 3 streets. I think you are in a position against an unknown at typically aggressive limits, your play gives no information about your holding to villian and I think this is probably to your advantage in these style games, when you have a hand which potentially is best, has lots of outs or really sucks. I think the river is a fold if you are bet into, but I wouldn't bother to bluff bet.

What i'm trying to say is that your play has allowed villian to gain no information from you, so on the river I think he is faced with a situation where he genuinely has little idea of your holding, I think this means he's inclined to bet only when he has genuine value, however still fearing the unknown quantity of your hand will call with many mediocre hands.

I hope this makes sense?

Re: boring basic crap hand I was thinking about in the shower
 

"I'm just curious how other people are handling hands like this...."

It would be highly unusual for me to consider calling that turn. In fact, if called the flop... my intension would be to raise the turn with most cards not being a QJ and calling down a Q or J.

Re: boring basic crap hand I was thinking about in the shower
 

I think you have very little folding equity on this board, and get 3-bet by little pairs enough for it to be a pain.

Re: boring basic crap hand I was thinking about in the shower
 

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I think you have very little folding equity on this board, and get 3-bet by little pairs enough for it to be a pain.

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I'd be folding here more than anything, but if I had a thought of continuation....it would be with fold equity/making a play on the brain. i do not think little pairs 3 bet the turn that often, but many will be pretty inclined to call you down. I do think you will get many folds from unpaired hands.....that would be nice. some players may fold some pairs to you...depending on what they think of your turn raises.

if you get 3bet, then your play doenst work and you fold and move on.

if you do get called hope... you can get your suckout on.

Re: boring basic crap hand I was thinking about in the shower
 

I dont like the turn call. What hand range does he put you on after you call a bet on an AA3r flop. He doesnt think youre drawing, and he's still betting.

Flop call is not bad, but I only call down if i hit, and i would bet if he checks the turn which he may do a fair amount of the time.

-Mike

Re: boring basic crap hand I was thinking about in the shower
 

my general line is to 3bet preflop,

but since you didnt, i like to fold the turn.


and yes, i usually fold to the 3rd barrel.

Re: boring basic crap hand I was thinking about in the shower
 

[ QUOTE ]
What I tend to do is if it's a full game (and I didn't reraise pre-flop), I'm more likely to just fold the flop and wait for a better spot to make my money. Real short, I would continue to play, sometimes call and sometimes raise.

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Can you elaborate? I'm not sure I understand. It seems like it should either be correct or a mistake to continue in this spot regardless of whether the game is full (assuming any bunching effect is negligable).

Is it because your opponent is more likely to be taking a shot at you with cheese when the game is short? Or because the metagame effects of calling down with a marginal hand is more important when shorthanded?

Re: boring basic crap hand I was thinking about in the shower
 

When you call the flop (which I would) and call the turn (which I would) if he bets the river you can easily fold in my opinion because I think K-high will get check/called almost every time, and all hands that beat you are still betting. If he checks it I take the free showdown and hope my Q-high is good. I think this is a spot where you maximize by doing nothing but calling and also lose the least.

Re: boring basic crap hand I was thinking about in the shower
 

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When you call the flop (which I would) and call the turn (which I would) if he bets the river you can easily fold in my opinion because I think K-high will get check/called almost every time, and all hands that beat you are still betting. If he checks it I take the free showdown and hope my Q-high is good. I think this is a spot where you maximize by doing nothing but calling and also lose the least.

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My thoughts precisely. Glad we're on the same page.

Re: boring basic crap hand I was thinking about in the shower
 

Would you typically check/call with K high here most every time if you were the villian?

Re: boring basic crap hand I was thinking about in the shower
 

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When you call the flop (which I would) and call the turn (which I would) if he bets the river you can easily fold in my opinion because I think K-high will get check/called almost every time

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His check-calling K high makes your calling w/ Q high a better play. I don't disagree with your conclusion, but this comment is a bit out of place.

Re: boring basic crap hand I was thinking about in the shower
 

[ QUOTE ]
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When you call the flop (which I would) and call the turn (which I would) if he bets the river you can easily fold in my opinion because I think K-high will get check/called almost every time

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His check-calling K high makes your calling w/ Q high a better play. I don't disagree with your conclusion, but this comment is a bit out of place.

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I'm pretty sure Schneids means that K-hi would bet the flop and turn but check the river, and only hands that are ahead of us would bet the river since it appears we are committed to showdown.

Surf

Re: boring basic crap hand I was thinking about in the shower
 

Yeah, I know what his point was, and I agree with it, that folding is the best play. But he included that K-high will check-call as part of the reason to fold the river, when in fact the opposite is true. The more hands that beat Q-high that will check-call, the better calling your opponent's bet is.