one pair, insanely huge pot
 

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ Hero (6 max, 6 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

SB ($500.40)
Hero ($470.40)
UTG ($143)
MP ($527.30)
CO ($371.20)
Button ($406.20)

Preflop: Hero is BB with Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. SB posts a blind of $2.

UTG, MP, CO, SB limp, I raise to $30, UTG, MP, CO call.

Flop: ($124) 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4 players)

I bet $100, UTG goes all-in for $113, MP reraises to $225, CO calls. Action on me.

UTG is terrible and MP seems somewhat LAG. Not much read on CO.

Just an orbit or two again UTG had posted UTG, everyone folded to me, I raised to $20, he called, he called $30 on a rag flop and folded to $100 all-in on the the turn (a king).

Re: one pair, insanely huge pot
 

i wasn't worried until i saw "CO Calls". I think he's got a monster and trying to take everyone along for a ride, also try not to build the pot OOP.

Re: one pair, insanely huge pot
 

Ouch. I would fold here given that you still get a ton of info, and that given PF action it's relatively unlikely that a TAG player has TT/JJ, although it is a possible holding for CO . That said, I think even if you do call you're going to be up against a power draw or set somewhere in there.

Re: one pair, insanely huge pot
 

He is in position and pot-comitted.

I couldn't figure out why he would not push there if he felt he had the best hand. Nearly half the deck is a huge action killer on the turn.

Re: one pair, insanely huge pot
 

after CO cold calls, I think you got to lay it down.

Re: one pair, insanely huge pot
 

[ QUOTE ]
He is in position and pot-comitted.

I couldn't figure out why he would not push there if he felt he had the best hand. Nearly half the deck is a huge action killer on the turn.

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because he sucks at poker is a possibility

I like your line, and fold

Re: one pair, insanely huge pot
 

Would it be fair of me to say that most of you are concerned about CO mostly? You figure he has a set?

Consider first that me and the LAG both have him covered and will play a side pot... and unless someone has somehow flopped the straight, I still have some equity in this huuuuuuuuge pot. I'm not so sure that it's as simple as "I think you're behind, you should fold." Maybe it is, but no one has convinced me yet.

Re: one pair, insanely huge pot
 

well I'll do my best to convince you, I'll spit out some not too coherent thoughts

like I said before CO could be slowplaying because he sucks at poker, and even thought MP is somewhat LAG, can you really think he'll do this with a pp that didn't reraise preflop and is now behind your QQ?

I think you'll be lucky to be a coinflip with either MP or CO (which is very +EV since it's 4-way) but this will not make up for the times you have 0-2 outs

Basically you've shown huge strength, MP has raised into a dry side pot (showing very big strength) and CO has cold-called (also showing very big strength)

I think the chance that MP and CO both have overpairs less than your QQ is very very small

not too mention UTG doesn't automatically have crap here

Re: one pair, insanely huge pot
 

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after CO cold calls, I think you got to lay it down.

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Why is everyone so afraid of CO? I think MP scares the [censored] out of me. LAG means he's raising TT/JJ PF almost always, and his raise AFTER AN ALL IN means he's not just running a [censored] semibluff.

Re: one pair, insanely huge pot
 

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[ QUOTE ]
after CO cold calls, I think you got to lay it down.

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Why is everyone so afraid of CO? I think MP scares the [censored] out of me. LAG means he's raising TT/JJ PF almost always, and his raise AFTER AN ALL IN means he's not just running a [censored] semibluff.

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I think we are just going with the (it takes more to call than it tkes to raise) and cold calls after such a scary action is scarier.

Re: one pair, insanely huge pot
 

Yeah, but most people don't know how to play poker. I've seen players I thought were decent call raises OOP with K5o. People will call with any crap if they think it might be the best hand.

Re: one pair, insanely huge pot
 

Fold...yes it's a huge pot, but you'd just make it a bigger pot for the winner (which won't be you assuming you don't hit a queen).

Re: one pair, insanely huge pot
 

I'd fold.

The way everyone is swinging at this pot there are plenty of bad cards that will beat you even if you do have the best hand.

However, that being said the way everyone played this hand you might have those other two guys beat. But that weird raise scares me. Why wouldn't he just shove it in? I'm way more afraid of that guy than the cold caller who most likely doesn't have a set. The pot is way too big to cold call with any type of big hand on that flop.

At least you know all of the players in that hand (other than you) are horrible players and you can most likely wait for a better spot.

Re: one pair, insanely huge pot
 

Call. Push a non-2 or 7 turn. Diamond turn is a little tricky. I probably push, but might c/f.

Re: one pair, insanely huge pot
 

[ QUOTE ]
Call. Push a non-2 or 7 turn. Diamond turn is a little tricky. I probably push, but might c/f.

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You're starting to sound like me. Better watch out.

Re: one pair, insanely huge pot
 

There are worse things in the world. In any case, in this hand, I'm unlikely to fold. With so many people in the pot you are getting pretty good odds on your money. If you win the side pot, you're on a freeroll for the main pot. The board is draw heavy, people get donkalicious with draws all the time. I'm certainly not folding the flop. If an obvious draw hits on the turn, fine - I'm drawing dead, I'll fold. But if it doesn't, I'm sticking it in there.

Re: one pair, insanely huge pot
 

To all those that are afraid of MP's raise:

If he know's UTG is terrible I can see him reraising here to shut out everyone else and get it headsup with UTG....his raise into the "dry" side pot doesn't scare me that much because the main pot is so freakin big it's well worth it to try to shut everyone else out here.

What scares me I think is the CO cold call.....he could be taking a card off with a draw here given the size of the pot...but with someone still left to act he has to think that it could get raised here....i'm kind of puzzled...he's either an idiot on a draw or he's got a set.

I think if hero is ahead here, he's barely ahead....and if he's behind he is WAY behind. given that he's only got $30 in this pot I just can't see calling here....the times he's right and he's ahead he's probably still going to lose nearly 50% of the time, and the times he's behind he's going to lose almost 100% of the time, barring a runner runner full house or something. He is getting a great price on making the call, but he's gotta be ahead almost half the time I think to make a push or something breakeven right?....assume he pushes for $500 and gets called by MP and CO....there is now around $1700 in the pot. Assume he's ahead of a straight draw and a pair + flush draw.

Qs Qh 247 27.35 644 71.32 12 1.33 0.278
4c 4d 230 25.47 661 73.20 12 1.33 0.259
Ad 6d 414 45.85 477 52.82 12 1.33 0.463

Hero is "ahead" but he's still only winning 27% of the time...that makes this roughly breakeven right.

If he's up against a smaller overpair and a combo draw things are a little better...but if he's up against a OESFD and the smaller over pair it isn't good still.

Qs Qh 376 41.64 509 56.37 18 1.99 0.423
Js Jd 65 7.20 820 90.81 18 1.99 0.079
Ad 6d 444 49.17 441 48.84 18 1.99 0.498

pokenum -h qs qh - jd js - 4d ad -- 6s 5d 3d
Holdem Hi: 903 enumerated boards containing 6s 5d 3d
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Qs Qh 291 32.23 594 65.78 18 1.99 0.329
Js Jd 55 6.09 830 91.92 18 1.99 0.068
Ad 4d 539 59.69 346 38.32 18 1.99 0.604

and of course if he's up against a combo draw and set.

pokenum -h qs qh - 6c 6h - 4d ad -- 6s 5d 3d
Holdem Hi: 903 enumerated boards containing 6s 5d 3d
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Qs Qh 34 3.77 851 94.24 18 1.99 0.044
6c 6h 487 53.93 398 44.08 18 1.99 0.546
Ad 4d 364 40.31 521 57.70 18 1.99 0.410

ouch.

I think there is a pretty good chance that the set and draw is what hero is up against and if that's the case he's getting in his money drawing dead........the question really becomes what hands is he up against most often and I think a set is just too likely...I reluctantly fold here I think.

Re: one pair, insanely huge pot
 

The thing you have to think about is this. What sort of hand is MP limping here that he is willing to raise knowing he is very likely to get called by any legitimate hand hero has (he essentially just minraised). I peg him for set or very strong draw, and CO with roughyl the same range but adding in some 99-JJ type hands. I agree that calling has great odds, but you're just so likely to be drawing dead, and there's such bad odds at play here because it's so tough to read the outs here. Any A sucks, a 2 or 7, a [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], who knows what might make someone a set on the turn.

Re: one pair, insanely huge pot
 

I pass, MP should not be bluffing into a dry sidepot, and CO should not be bluffing when he cold calls.

I find it hard to believe that 3 players have worse hands than you here. Also, even if only UTG has you beat, then you still have a 3-way battle for the sidepot, and one guy who raised to created it, and another who cold called.

I pass QQ here.

Re: one pair, insanely huge pot
 

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Call. Push a non-2 or 7 turn. Diamond turn is a little tricky. I probably push, but might c/f.

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If you are planning to call, and push any non-2/7 board, then you should push now. You are not really eliminating very many hands by calling to push a non-2 or 7 turn.

If you think you are a fave in the sidepot (or would have >1/3rd equity there when they both call), then you should push now. I think the moment of truth is right now, and you should push or fold. Nobody is folding now so decide now.

Re: one pair, insanely huge pot
 

You have to fold, even AA looks bad here it appears that someone has hit a set or at least KK with all that action there is a zero % chance your ahead.... Fold, then take a shot or puke because that sucks (not your fault)

Re: one pair, insanely huge pot
 

MP's reraise makes me think that he has a hand that doesn't want overcalls, and thus a hand that you're probably beating. CO's call doesn't mean much... probably that he's on a draw and is being priced in by all of the money in the pot. I think I call and then fire a safe turn again.

Re: one pair, insanely huge pot
 

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I pass, MP should not be bluffing into a dry sidepot, and CO can't be bluffing when he cold calls.


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FYP

Re: one pair, insanely huge pot
 

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The thing you have to think about is this. What sort of hand is MP limping here that he is willing to raise knowing he is very likely to get called by any legitimate hand hero has (he essentially just minraised).

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I disagree a little bit here....if MP knows that UTG is a donkey, then I think he could be making this move with something as week as TPTK or an overpair smaller than queens, like 88 or 99. Yes his raise is just a "minraise" but he's facing the field with calling a raise and a reraise cold....that's a lot different than min-raising someone who's already bet....UTG is all in so he has already essentially "called" the minraise but that kind of action might be enough to isolate against UTG who he knows is a donkey....if he can fold out hands that have him beat here, then he can isolate against the horrible player and likely win a nice pot....if MP just calls the UTG all-in then there is no way he can isolate and he would very likely face a re-raise...this way he has folding equity and it's fairly considerable...look at how we are all saying that hero should fold...CO has the monster, not MP.

Re: one pair, insanely huge pot
 

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Call. Push a non-2 or 7 turn. Diamond turn is a little tricky. I probably push, but might c/f.

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are you high or drunk read it again. CO just cold call an all in and a min raise he reaks of a set or made hand. No way QQ is good here? I would even be inclined to fold AA here....

Re: one pair, insanely huge pot
 

I'm high and drunk. But if you think QQ is never good here, you are wrong.

Re: one pair, insanely huge pot
 

this is a really interesting hand. In it I would undoubtedly fold like a puss but I think there are alot of things going on and a call/AI might be in order. My thought is that the reraise is likely a small overpair that you beat. You said he's lag, and he limped preflop. A draw would most likely fold and a set would bet bigger I think (unless you feel he's thoughtful enough to discount you being on a FD here so he's not worried about laying you the wrong odds). He clearly wants to shut out the players behind him so it's likely he has a vulnerable hand. If you think he will assume you're not on a FD, I would be inclined to fold as his bet has little fold equity. And the short stack probably has the FD. I'd be interested to see the results eventually

Re: one pair, insanely huge pot
 

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I'm high and drunk. But if you think QQ is never good here, you are wrong.

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your behind here 98% of the time at most. CO cold called. He has a monster nobody has the stones to cold call there with less than a set . QQ is no good there. Like I said, i'd be highly likly to dump AA. Calling there is just chip spewing....
PS I wanna get whatever potion your taking that makes you assume your ahead here.....

Re: one pair, insanely huge pot
 

OMFG. "No one has the stones to cold call here." Yeah, it takes a ton of stones to cold call here with a draw just like the huge fish that he probably is. Not everyone is trapping with a monster (which would make no sense to do on this board anyways), most people who flat call are on draws.

Re: one pair, insanely huge pot
 

this one should be marked for the digest

Re: one pair, insanely huge pot
 

I'd like to elaborate briefly on the shortstack. On the flop, he took freaking forever to decide to move in. After putting 25% of his stack in preflop, he would certainly insta-call getting 2:1 with any sort of draw or any "reasonable" made hand (top pair, overpair, etc). It was painfully obvious that he had a terrible hand.

Re: one pair, insanely huge pot
 

[ QUOTE ]
OMFG. "No one has the stones to cold call here." Yeah, it takes a ton of stones to cold call here with a draw just like the huge fish that he probably is. Not everyone is trapping with a monster (which would make no sense to do on this board anyways), most people who flat call are on draws.

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Yeah I was kinda thinking the same thing.. fishes play like that when drawing, so you might be ahead here some of the time... still I don't like QQ here so I'd probably fold

Re: one pair, insanely huge pot
 

[ QUOTE ]
OMFG. "No one has the stones to cold call here." Yeah, it takes a ton of stones to cold call here with a draw just like the huge fish that he probably is. Not everyone is trapping with a monster (which would make no sense to do on this board anyways), most people who flat call are on draws.

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Tilted so easy?

Either way, given the number of people in the hand the draw and connected board, folding is the only option.

Re: one pair, insanely huge pot
 

your queens are most likely not good here, and if they are, there's a great chance they wont hold up. Good pot odds mean nothing if you're drawing to 1 clean out. You've said "i have a big pair" as plainly as you can, and noone appears to care. Time to fold.

Re: one pair, insanely huge pot
 

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folding is the only option.

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Riiiiiight.... I took you off ignore in order to see what you had posted in my bluff the turn thread. You had quoted Bobbo saying to fold and added nothing else. I'm putting you back on ignore.

Re: one pair, insanely huge pot
 

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folding is the only option.

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Riiiiiight.... I took you off ignore in order to see what you had posted in my bluff the turn thread. You had quoted Bobbo saying to fold and added nothing else. I'm putting you back on ignore.

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That bluff was a terrible thought in that hand. Bluff with outs. You had KJ there no draws no anything. You know very often the answers to your own posts. A bluff there would be a horrible desperate attempt at winning that pot. Bobby said it best Fold. Anyway go head and put me back on ignore. I am not quite sure, but am I supposed to care? I mean what did I say, I said folding is the only option? It is correct in the situation i'm afraid. If you think otherwise thats your entitlement, there are many ways to play poker. But in this instance, i think that it is clear that folding is correct....

Re: one pair, insanely huge pot
 

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You've said "i have a big pair" as plainly as you can

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Given that this is the second time I've overbet the pot preflop from the big blind in my fairly short time spent at this table, I'm not quite sure that they will believe me.

UTG certainly doesn't believe me, and I have no reason to think that the LAG is a good player. I could certainly see him putting me on a steal and correctly putting UTG on trash. And since he's a bad LAG, he raises a little bit to isolate against UTG, to prevent CO from drawing cheaply, and to force out my overcards. CO's call confused me, but given the size of the pot it's certainly possible he's drawing.

If I go all-in here I only need to win a small percentage of the time to show a profit. I felt like I would be making a mistake to fold if I could come up with any reasonable way that I could be ahead, and I could, so I went all-in.

Re: one pair, insanely huge pot
 

Even if folding is correct, it is silly to say that it is the only option. And you only bluff with outs? Does that mean you never bluff the river? Just because I have no outs when called, doesn't mean it is not a good bluff. It is a good bluff if he folds often enough to make it +EV. But that is neither here nor there in this thread. And I would care if I were the only person on someone's ignore list. If you don't, then fine.

Re: one pair, insanely huge pot
 

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I felt like I would be making a mistake to fold if I could come up with any reasonable way that I could be ahead, and I could, so I went all-in.

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i agree. results?

Re: one pair, insanely huge pot
 

[ QUOTE ]
Even if folding is correct, it is silly to say that it is the only option. And you only bluff with outs? Does that mean you never bluff the river? Just because I have no outs when called, doesn't mean it is not a good bluff. It is a good bluff if he folds often enough to make it +EV. But that is neither here nor there in this thread. And I would care if I were the only person on someone's ignore list. If you don't, then fine.

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I would care a lot more if I felt I said something horendously wrong. I have an oppinion you have another. That is the end of it. And it is a bad bluff transparent in everyway, there is defintaly better spots to bluff. That isnt one of them. But alas you were playing him not me so If you trust that he would fold a large % of the time then perhaps it was correct. But from the outside, just reading it, it looks like a bad spot to make a move. Especially at the low level stake where people love to call with garbage....