30/60 Stud hi hand
 

Any thoughts? All players are good semi-loose, tricky and very agressive. No one knows the 5 seat well (he is the weakest), but the other 3 of us have played thousands of hands together.

7 Card Stud High ($30/$60), Ante $5, Bring-In $10 (converter)

Seat 1: $2,329
Seat 3: $725
Seat 5: $292
Seat 6: $806.50
Hero: $4,913
Seat 8: $587

3rd Street - (1.00 SB)

Seat 1: xx xx 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 3: xx xx A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___raises
Seat 5: xx xx 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 6: xx xx J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___folds
Hero: T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 8: xx xx 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___brings-in___calls

4th Street - (5.00 SB)

Seat 3: xx xx A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___bets___raises
Seat 5: xx xx 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___calls___calls
Hero: T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___raises___calls
Seat 8: xx xx 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___calls___calls

5th Street - (8.50 BB)

Seat 3: xx xx A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___bets
Seat 5: xx xx 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___calls
Hero: T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 8: xx xx 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___calls

6th Street - (12.50 BB)

Seat 3: xx xx A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___bets
Seat 5: xx xx 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___folds
Hero: T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 8: xx xx 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___calls

River - (15.50 BB)

Seat 3: xx xx A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] xx___bets___raises___calls
Hero: T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___raises___raises
Seat 8: xx xx 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] xx___folds

Total pot: (23.50 BB)

Re: 30/60 Stud hi hand
 

Heh, how tricky/aggressive is Seat 3? I think he's saying pretty clearly "I've got aces" on 4th. I think this is a fold on 4th (or 5th, if you must peel one on 4th) unless you know he's likely to have air. You're the one who has played thousands of hands with him, and I don't play this high.

He bets right into your paired door on 6th, and he 3-bets on the river. If nothing else, I'd refrain from capping the river, but this is close since he can't 5-bet.

Re: 30/60 Stud hi hand
 

I think a reasonable case can be made for folding on third. I would probably only call on fourth and hope to either hit hard on fifth or get out cheap. I definitely only call the three-bet on the river unless this guy is really a loose cannon.

I see the game is full as I write this. Don't think I've ever seen that before. How often does it go?

Re: 30/60 Stud hi hand
 

This is an easy fold on third right? I don't see why you called unless you had a good read he was raising light.

Re: 30/60 Stud hi hand
 

[ QUOTE ]

I see the game is full as I write this. Don't think I've ever seen that before. How often does it go?

[/ QUOTE ]

The game goes 2 to 4 handed about 12-16 hours a day and gets more than 4 people for maybe an hour a day.

Re: 30/60 Stud hi hand
 

Carlos,

I think if you play this hand you should re-raise on 3rd street. I hate to cold call 3rd street with what could be a lower pair because you are making a mistake one way or the other. If he actually has aces its a mistake to call and if he doesn't have aces its a mistake not to re-raise to get it heads up. So atleast by re-raising you have a chance that you are making the right play. Barry Greenstein talks about this concept in his book "Ace on the river"

The raise on 4th street looks OK to knock out seat 8. But like I said before I think if you're willing to raise on 4th street to knock out players you might as well do it on 3rd.

I would just call on 5th street like you did. Normally I'd like to raise here with such a big pot but I really don't think you're gonna make anyone fold after 4th street.

I might raise on 6th street. First off I think there is a good chance you have the best hand here since you have the ace. Seat 3 could have pocket kings or queens here. The two benefits of the raise here is that seat 8 is definitely on a draw and if you indeed do have the best hand you want to get him out of there. Secondly, you gain more information from seat 3. Even if hes really tricky, I think if he 3 bets on 6th street you can be fairly sure he has trip aces and can fold on the river, although it would be a tough fold.

I like the original raise on the river but I would just call when he re-raises.

Re: 30/60 Stud hi hand
 

Questions :

-If you don't raise 4th (I'm assuming to fold some people), what do you do on 5th when the pot is so much smaller?

-What do you put seat 8 on? (My read in white) <font color="white"> Seat 8 looks like a low 3 flush. Sticking around for the double bet on 4th looks alot like 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] or something similar (maybe a rolled hand) </font> end read

Given what I think of 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] guy, 5th seems like its getting a bit scary. The reason here is that I can't see what that guy can call with that doesn't utterly destory your pot equity. And I think I may have folded there. But if the Ace is very aggressive (and will play this way with something like 66A) and the 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] guy is a bit "sticky" then I'd play on now that at least I have ugly straight outs, and my Tens are still live.

Re: 30/60 Stud hi hand
 

When he three bets you on the river, he sure seems to announce that he is full - i.e. he is not afraid that you hit a straight or flush draw, which MIGHT be his read based upon your play. Given your description of him, he could easily have started with 88A. (more fuel for the third street raise opinions) If that turns out to be true, then nice cap, but that appears to be about the only plausible way you win the hand, unless of course he had a temporary lapse in judgement.

Re: 30/60 Stud hi hand
 

lstream: good point about 8-8-A being a possibility. I wouldn't be surprised if that were what was shown down. However, if that's the read that makes capping the river appropriate, then it is definitely what also makes folding 4th or 5th UI appropriate.

Re: 30/60 Stud hi hand
 

Got enough chips on the table Carlos? I think you need about 1K more to be intimidating. Tee hee.

Here are the assumptions I am making based on your calls and raises:

3rd - you do not believe your opponent has aces or a pair above your 10s.

4th &amp; 5th - you are trying to buy a free card on 5th street or get it heads up. Since you call 5th you have already made the decision to take it to the river as you do not have a strong draw secondary draw on 5th street and need a runner runner straight or fullhouse to have a strong five card hand.

6th street - You call. You now decide your opponent may have three aces since he bets into your board that is straight looking and also has a paired door card.

7th street - You are full so you decide to raise when he bets into you. But he three bets you and you decide to cap it...just cause...lol (can't think of good reason why unless you think he is less than 10s full--8s full?)

Okay analysis:


First, not real fond of your third street play. I assume you call here because you have the ace kicker. That doesn't mean he doesn't have aces or a pair over your 10s and it also means you are playing 6 card stud vs 7 card stud, essentially. One thing I wouldn't put him on is a flush draw.

But, if you are playing third because you don't think he has he aces or a pair bigger than yours, I recommend a reraise to try get it heads up on third or to find out where you are sooner so you can make a decision to fold on 5th.

Since you decided to only call the raise on 3rd street, I recommend making the move you did on 4th on 5th instead. I assume you made this move to get the hand heads up or to buy a free card. I don't think you did it to find out where you were at because you called 5th (didn't fold) without a strong redraw to a five card hand (i.e. you needed a runner runner straight or full house). I believe you have already made the decsion to stay in the hand to river unless a disaster happens. The four street raise with the suited connector is not real strong with all the diamonds out so the "raise value" is not as good as it might be in other situations.

If you make the move on 5th street instead, the player has to question where you are at and you have a better chance of knocking out at least one player behind you when he has to call two bets cold. I would have done this even if you didn't catch the nice looking 9. IMO that card was bonus for a 5th street raise.

On 6th - what the hell do you do? If your read is that player one doesn't have aces then you should raise to charge the most to the drawing hands. You really don't put the 5th seat on a flush with all the diamond out, at least I don't. And Seat 8 could be pushing for a flush and/or now be open-ended? Gotta love 6th street folders in a pot like this.

If you decide that player 1 may in fact have three aces cause he bets into your straight looking paired door card board on 6th, then capping the river is insane when he three bets you. At least save one bet..unless you think he has 8s full.

Fun hand.

Repectfully,

Sara

Re: 30/60 Stud hi hand
 

capping the river makes me want to puke.

Re: 30/60 Stud hi hand
 

One time in a movie,I think it was Cape fear,I saw a guy raise his fist up in the air from underwater as he sank to the bottom of a river.This image flashed into my mind when I saw your last raise.(No disrespect intended.I'll bet you won the hand.)

Re: 30/60 Stud hi hand
 

Very nice analysis Sara

Re: 30/60 Stud hi hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
One time in a movie,I think it was Cape fear,I saw a guy raise his fist up in the air from underwater as he sank to the bottom of a river.This image flashed into my mind when I saw your last raise.(No disrespect intended.I'll bet you won the hand.)

[/ QUOTE ]

Great analogy...it made me laugh.

Re: 30/60 Stud hi hand
 

Thanks for the great analyses, especially by sara and frappe. I had an idea that I screwed this hand up somewhere right after I played it (which is why I posted it) but I didn't think it was to bad at the time. The more I look at the hand and read your ideas the less I like my play throughout. I just started writing a paper that is due in five hours so my analysis and results will have to wait until later.

3rd st. reraise
 

One quick note about both frappe's and sara's anaylses. You both mentioned that if I played the hand, I should have reraised on third to get heads up. I would definitely have done this if there hadn't been a caller in between us, and given that there was only the bring in left to act behind me, raising would not have helped much to reduce the number of players in the pot. Were you guys thinking that maybe the original raiser would 3 bet and knock out the guy in the middle, that reraising would be worth it to ensure that the bring in would not enter, or did you just not notice that there was a 3rd player already in?

-Carlos

Re: 30/60 Stud hi hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
capping the river makes me want to puke.

[/ QUOTE ]

Indeed.

Hey Chris, you should read/post more in the stud forum.

My thoughts and results
 

On third st. I thought there was a good chance that I had the best hand (the 3 seat would open raise with pretty much any pair, or 3 boardwalk cards), but I choose not to reraise because of seat 5's call, meaning I wasn't getting it heads up, which weakens my dead hand in a 3 or 4 way pot. I think folding is probably the worst option since I have good position for the rest of the hand and since my hand is best a lot. Reraising would be ok, but ties me to the hand on later sts. by making the pot big, which I don't like doing with a dead hand multiway.

I agree with everyone that my 4th st. play should have just been to call. What I was thinking is that I had a scary board and I was trying to take control of the hand and knock out the 4th player. Unfortunately I didn't consider the fact that the diamonds were so dead and therefore my hand wasn't very scary. I guess I also made the mental mistake of committing myself to the hand at this point, basically deciding that the 3 seat didn't have As, and might have had just a lower pair in the hole.

I 5th I think I should have folded. My 9 and A are both dead, and I only have runner-runner str8 draws. The 3 seat seems really strong after the 3 bet on 4th and then betting into 3 other players when he has a rag board. At minimum he has a pair bigger than Ts, probably As, and maybe As up or trip 8s (and an outside chance of 8s and 2s). I also failed to think about what the other two players had. I'd guess str8 &amp; flush draws, with maybe a baby pair. Basically I am in 3rd or 4th place in this hand. I was playing the hand as if I was heads up with the 3 seat instead of considering the big change in a multiway pot.

On 6th, my 5th st. call comes to bite me in the ass. I really want to raise to charge the draws the max if I am ahead, but I think there is a good chance that I will get 3 bet if I am behind and my full house cards are kind of dead. You know you have made a mistake earlier in the hand if you hit your best possible card and can't even raise.

On the river the the cap was basically an impulse bet (like raising my fist while drowning). I was thought, oh well i *hope* he has 8s full, and he can't reraise...might as well throw in an extra bet. The result of the hand is that the 3 seat had As up on 4th, and beat me with a full house.



All in all I played the hand pretty poorly...luckily I realized that I was playing like crap a few hands later when I 3 bet a guy who I was sure was slow playing either rolled 7s or a big wired pair when I hit trip 6s, and quit the game in frustration at my stupidity:-(

Thanks for the feedback,
Carlos

Re: 30/60 Stud hi hand
 

Haven't read any replies, haven't played any stud lately really [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img].

3rd is ok though folding would be fine in a lot of situations. If you thought the bring in was likely to call you could consider reraising (I wouldn't do this much but would rather raise here than on 4th in general).

4th I think diamonds are too dead for your raise to look very scary, and I would think that seat 8 is pretty likely to either have a hand which he will fold for 1 bet, or a hand that will call two bets (knowing that the game plays tricky and aggressive, people don't tend to let things go too easily in these situations). I don't like the raise.

5th I'd be tempted to just fold IF you hadn't made the pot pretty big. As is I think it's a call.

6th I'd raise right away to charge seat 8 who is probably drawing to SOMETHING, possibly even drawing dead or mostly dead, but is more likely to call a raise here than on the river. If you get three bet here I think I just call.

7th I'd raise once but not cap. The raise is a little better than it otherwise looks because the pot is a little bigger than normal, meaning people will call with slightly weaker hands. Still looks to me like you'd get more of seat 8s nearly dead money if you had raised on 6th (or maybe knocked out someone with outs).