200NL - TT - How bad did I butcher this?
 

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $2 BB (9 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

SB ($68)
BB ($315.35)
UTG ($107.05)
UTG+1 ($237.65)
MP1 ($105.45)
MP2 ($193.75)
Hero ($186.60)
CO ($214.95)
Button ($183.80)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG+1 calls $2, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $10</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Button calls $10, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, UTG+1 calls $8.

Flop: ($33) 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
UTG+1 checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $20</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises to $40</font>, UTG+1 folds, Hero calls $20.

Turn: ($113) 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">Button bets $20</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $60</font>, Button calls $40.

River: ($233) 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, Button checks.

Final Pot: $233

No reads. I have to admit I was pretty lost in this hand after the flop minraise. Comments on all streets welcome.

Re: 200NL - TT - How bad did I butcher this?
 

Without a read fold the flop...

Re: 200NL - TT - How bad did I butcher this?
 

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Without a read fold the flop...

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You are not serious...

Re: 200NL - TT - How bad did I butcher this?
 

Not really sure what you are going for on the turn.

Re: 200NL - TT - How bad did I butcher this?
 

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Not really sure what you are going for on the turn.

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yea turn play sucks bad

however, once he bets that $20, what would you do xorbie? check-raise big? check-call? im leaning towards check-call, keep the pot small, maybe vb river (but isnt river like 150 by then and we only have 110 left in our stack? ugly)

Re: 200NL - TT - How bad did I butcher this?
 

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Not really sure what you are going for on the turn.

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Honestly, neither do I (which is why I'm looking for advice [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]). I guess I was sort of thinking I was beat and planning to check/fold, but then that $20 bet just seemed so weak, I thought he might just fold if I came over the top. How would you play it? Lead out? Check/call?

Re: 200NL - TT - How bad did I butcher this?
 

I said fold because this hand would be extremely difficult to play on other streets and villains hand range is far too wide.
Chances are your going to face a turn and river bet, What then? Hero's Line was good if you wanted to see a showdown, but I think you're beat enough here against an unknown to fold.

Re: 200NL - TT - How bad did I butcher this?
 

even if you wanted him to fold, a check-raise to 60 in that pot is not doing a thing

pot is 110

he bets 20

you raise to 60

hes got 40 to call into a 190 pot, 5:1 odds is good enough for basically any high heart, any pair, any overpair, any straight draws + pairs, whatever, you name it

Re: 200NL - TT - How bad did I butcher this?
 

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[ QUOTE ]
Without a read fold the flop...

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You are not serious...

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Is folding REALLY that bad?

Re: 200NL - TT - How bad did I butcher this?
 

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[ QUOTE ]
Without a read fold the flop...

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You are not serious...

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Is folding REALLY that bad?

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i dont think so. still like a call.

Re: 200NL - TT - How bad did I butcher this?
 

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[ QUOTE ]
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Without a read fold the flop...

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You are not serious...

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Is folding REALLY that bad?

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I would say yes.

Re: 200NL - TT - How bad did I butcher this?
 

was it 55?

Re: 200NL - TT - How bad did I butcher this?
 

[ QUOTE ]
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Without a read fold the flop...

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You are not serious...

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Is folding REALLY that bad?

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well, what do you think he has? JJ-AA? a set? 2-pair? are you folding AA here?

Re: 200NL - TT - How bad did I butcher this?
 

i dont think it's so much that wooly thinks he's behind it's that he's afraid of being OOP and making a big mistake later in the hand. could be wrong though...

Re: 200NL - TT - How bad did I butcher this?
 

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i dont think it's so much that wooly thinks he's behind it's that he's afraid of being OOP and making a big mistake later in the hand. could be wrong though...

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soooo hes saying he cant play OOP on turns/rivers so he wants to fold something thats not the nuts on the flop?

weaaak

Re: 200NL - TT - How bad did I butcher this?
 

No yves, I'm saying against someone without stats. If i had just the little smudgest of a hint of his playstyle I'd probaly play this hand and try to get a cheap SD. I can see leading/blocking all the way down as an effective way to play this hand, and fold to another raise.

Would anyone 3bet or push the flop?

Re: 200NL - TT - How bad did I butcher this?
 

Any ideas what the flop minraise means from an average unknown at this level? I can't figure out if that means a monster, or if he's just trying to pick off a suspected CB for cheap. I guess with no reads and no idea what he has I should just look for a cheap showdown? Isn't it a little weak to go into check/call mode and give any potential draws a chance to catch up though? The only aggression he's shown is a minraise and a 1/6 pot bet. Is that enough to assume I'm beat?

Re: 200NL - TT - How bad did I butcher this?
 

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The only aggression he's shown is a minraise and a 1/6 pot bet. Is that enough to assume I'm beat?

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Based on the replies to my fold line, I'd say, "no."

Re: 200NL - TT - How bad did I butcher this?
 

Your turn play completely mystifies me.

Re: 200NL - TT - How bad did I butcher this?
 

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Your turn play completely mystifies me.

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lol, I know, it sucks. I guess what I'm trying to get at here is, is this a situation (facing a flop minraise w/ an overpair) where I should be looking for a cheap showdown, or should I be more aggressive because I'm probably ahead? I couldn't decide between the two and that craptacular turn play was the result.

Re: 200NL - TT - How bad did I butcher this?
 

Being mindraised OOP on flop w/ an overpair or TPTK is the hardest position in poker for me.

If u don't fold flop then lead turn.

After turn I am definately done with the hand.

Re: 200NL - TT - How bad did I butcher this?
 

I don't think you need to bet so much PF. 7 or 8 is fine as well. If you are on a table with guys who gladly call 5xBB (as it would appear here) then why not bet that or more with AA-QQ rather than a solid but not amazing hand TT.

Bet the flop harder. I see these kinda weak bets on the flop often at 100 and 200NL and I love to try and take those pots fully knowing I may be weaker. Bet near pot, you can always fold to further aggression, but don't appear so weak right away.

I would just call the turn. There is no reason to play a huge pot now when so much beats you. Plus he is offering you a small pot and as has been stated a bunch of times, your raise is ineffectual anyways. Try and get a cheap showdown. You gotta fold to a huge river bet...which obviously didn't happen. I expect to win here 60-70% of the time after that river action.

Re: 200NL - TT - How bad did I butcher this?
 

I don't think the flop bet is overly bad, but the minraise on his part seems like a weak holding, some draw combination or pair + draw. you only have enough behind you though to the point where a reraise on the flop is more or less gonna commit you to the hand, and not only that you're likely only getting called by hands that dominate you.

with that said though, this wasn't the best turn card to see OOP, and if your plan is to checkraise there then I'm more in favor of check-raising that a little harder. You're giving him far too good odds to call with any kind of redraw or high heart or pair/two pair combination.

do you plan on calling the turn if he pushes your smallish CR? it seems that way. more than anything it looks like FPS and if I'm villain i am thinking you are trying to represent the draw you hit and you raised just enough to where you think you could release the hand if you saw further aggression.

2/3 of your stack is in the pot come the river, are there any reads on this guy? this seems very player dependant when you think of the best turn line or river line.

Re: 200NL - TT - How bad did I butcher this?
 

Thanks for the advice guys. I agree that the turn checkraise was pretty horrible. I probably should have just called if I wasn't willing to commit my whole stack to the pot with a real raise that would make him fold something.

Anyway, he had 33 for a flopped set. I guess he got scared of the flush after the turn so I ended up getting a relatively cheap showdown in the end, considering the pot was $100 after the flop and I only put in $60 more after that. Who knows if he would have folded to a larger raise.

Re: 200NL - TT - How bad did I butcher this?
 

How ugly a board does a pocket pair have to face anyway?
Lets try put him on a hand:
-suited A,x
-suited K,x
-small pair
The way I read it, his call on the flop indicated one of the above. His raise on the flop suggests he has a four flush; and youir reraise on the turn has confused him, so he thinks maybe you have a better flush so he checks the river.
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