10/20 TT Calldown
 

This is my 3rd hand at the table. The first hand I folded my BB, the second hand I raised from the SB with AJo, flopped a J, the flop was capped and I lost to JT who rivered a T and called my bet. So, that's my image.

CO is 18.7/11/1.79 over 2700 hands.

Party Poker 10/20 Full

Preflop: Folded to CO who raises, I 3-bet T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], blinds fold, CO caps it, I call.

Flop: 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
CO bets, I call.

Turn: 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
CO bets, I call.

River: K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
CO bets

Should I raise anywhere? Should I fold now?

Re: 10/20 TT Calldown
 

I'd call, I wouldn't expect to win often, but if your folding the place to do it was the turn. That's also the place to raise I think if your going to anywhere but I wouldn't.

-DeathDonkey

Re: 10/20 TT Calldown
 

Hello Shant,

I would not fold. I would consider putting in a raise before the river. I am not sure why you did not. It seems like the CO will have a decently wide enough range that you can put in more bets than you did postflop.

Incidentally,

Pliioop

Re: 10/20 TT Calldown
 

I think his capping range likely widens a bit given it is a Co/Bt battle therefore I want to put in a raise somewhere. I typically pop this flop, but not sure I like this best as I also want to get to SD so the best place to pop is the turn. I think we can safely fold to a 3bet there and I'd likely check behind to an A or K river and maybe other rivers as well.

Re: 10/20 TT Calldown
 

Shant, I thought you played this hand really well. Any time you 3 bet preflop with a hand like TT and a solid player caps you out of position and you get a nice flop(no ace or King), I think the best line is to just call down unless an Ace or King hits. I think raising on any street will just cost you more money in the long run than all the possible money you can make from this play when you happen to have the best hand.
Now on the interesting part of your hand...The river. There are two things that are horrible about this river.
1) The obvious, AK just got there, the one hand you were hoping the villain had.
2) The villain bet this river.

You are getting 8.75-1 to call here, and the question you must ask yourself before you put more money in the middle is what is the likely range of the vaillin? Is it the typical JJ-AA,AK range. (This is the range I usually put a solid player on when he opens from the CO and I 3 bet him on the button, and he caps). If so then fold. But if you think the villain is capable of capping OOP with AQ or 99 or some other BS than you have the odds to call.

I personally would probably fold to this bad river card, as I think given the villain's stats, I dont see him as the type of guy that would cap AQ or 99 OOP, and given his low postflop aggression I also think he may check this river if he didnt like this card.

Re: 10/20 TT Calldown
 

I feel you MUST raise either F or T. I think you have the best hand here VERY often. (It depends upon how aggressive your opponent is). Dont know where it's best raised though... On river I'd check behind for an A and probably for a K aswell, and for a 5. Not for any other card.
(So I have a question, 18.7/11/1.79??? Is that VPIP/PFR/TOTAL AGGRESSION?)

Re: 10/20 TT Calldown
 

in a CO vs button situation wes, i think even this player is capping AQ/99 with some regularity.

Re: 10/20 TT Calldown
 

If we raise this turn, can we fold to a 3-bet? I think the times we're raised off the best hand by a 3-bet are pretty small, so it's probably correct. It would be nice if AK doesn't want to call down our turn raise. Free showdown if he calls the rizzle.

Re: 10/20 TT Calldown
 

Calling down with TT is a bad play because you are not giving AK a chance to fold. If he spikes an A or K on the river like this hand, you will lose. I think you must get a raise in on the flop or turn. Personally, I would raise the flop and call a 3-bet. If Villian calls my raise on the flop, I will bet when checked to on the turn. If Villian 3-bets my raise on the flop, I will raise his bet again on the turn and fold to a 3-bet. If he just calls my raise, I will check behind on the river.

Re: 10/20 TT Calldown
 

[ QUOTE ]
in a CO vs button situation wes, i think even this player is capping AQ/99 with some regularity.

[/ QUOTE ]
If this is what you think, then calling the river is certainly correct. I still think calling down is the best line for the hero postflop. My perception is that most solid players will not cap with AQ or 99 OOP even in a CO vs Button situation. Which is why I said I would fold the river. My view of this situation can certainly be misguided, but thats the framework I am working with here. Against many other opponents this would be an easy river call, but against this guy I would fold the river. I am interested in what others may see as the "typical range" of a solid player who caps out of position in this steal/resteal situation.

Re: 10/20 TT Calldown
 

An aggressive and very good player can cap from CO in this situation with ANY PAIR. This particular player may cap down to maybe 77 and AK, AQ, AJ.

Re: 10/20 TT Calldown
 

well, the majority of my playing time came at 6-max tables, so i may tend to give someone capping in a resteal situation less credit than they deserve.

Re: 10/20 TT Calldown
 

I like your line the best. Seems WA/WB doesn't it?

Re: 10/20 TT Calldown
 

you're not way ahead of 2 overcards

Re: 10/20 TT Calldown
 

[ QUOTE ]
Calling down with TT is a bad play because you are not giving AK a chance to fold. If he spikes an A or K on the river like this hand, you will lose. I think you must get a raise in on the flop or turn. Personally, I would raise the flop and call a 3-bet. If Villian calls my raise on the flop, I will bet when checked to on the turn. If Villian 3-bets my raise on the flop, I will raise his bet again on the turn and fold to a 3-bet. If he just calls my raise, I will check behind on the river.

[/ QUOTE ]
I really dont see what any aggressive line will accomplish in this HU situation. I really dont see what a flop raise will accomplish if youre just gonna call down if the villain 3 bets. I know you didnt actually call down, instead you raised the turn, which is the equivalent of calling down since its the same 2BB investment.

Before you raise this flop, you need to ask yourself this question. If my opponent 3 bets me, am I gonna still invest 2 more big bets in this hand? If the answer is yes, then this flop raise is gonna cost you alot of money in the long run since far too often you are going to get 3 bet and be drawing to 2 outs. This bad event will happen enough times that it will more than cancel out those lucky times that you raise the flop and your oppoenent calls with his 6 outer and he proceeds to miss his 6 outer on the turn or river if he goes to the river.
Poker is a game of maximizing and minimizing. To be simplistic, when we have the advantage we may maximize by raising or calling to slow play. When we are at a disadvantage we may maximize by calling or folding. This situation with TT to me is a clear minimizing situation, I believe the hero will save more money in the long run by just calling down, then he can possibly make by raising on any street to extract some kind of value out of this hand.

The exception to this situation is if the hero can safely fold if the villain 3 bets the flop or turn. If this is the case, then raising is better than calling since raising gives us ironclad information that we can use to make a good fold. If that were the case I would raise the flop and if the villain 3 bet, I would call one more small bet and fold the turn unimproved. Or maybe I would call the flop and raise the turn to put pressure on AK, if I knew the villain would only 3 bet me with a better hand. But with no read on how the villain plays postflop, I believe calling down is the best move.

I hope you can understand that raising this flop and calling a 3 bet and investing 2 more big bets in this hand is a losing proposition. Just calling down in this situation will easily make more money in the long run than your line just from all the money you save when your trailing.

Re: 10/20 TT Calldown
 

For those of you raising the flop or turn, isn't AK/AQ seeing the river here always, especially with the added gutshot outs from the flop?

Re: 10/20 TT Calldown
 

yeah, so why not charge them to chase?

i'm not sure where i stand on this hand, so i think i'll just keep throwing in random comments without actually saying what i'd like to do.

Re: 10/20 TT Calldown
 

I guess its sort of a compromise since we can also be behind to a higher pocket pair and we don't want a worse pocket pair to find a fold.

Actually a pocket pair won't fold here and may even 3-bet thinking we're donking around with 55. If we raise the flop or turn are we really calling down all the time now if we get 3-bet? What happens if we get 3-bet and an Ace or King falls on the turn or river? Do we fold then?

Re: 10/20 TT Calldown
 

[ QUOTE ]
If we raise this turn, can we fold to a 3-bet? I think the times we're raised off the best hand by a 3-bet are pretty small, so it's probably correct. It would be nice if AK doesn't want to call down our turn raise. Free showdown if he calls the rizzle.

[/ QUOTE ]
The basic theme to my posts is that the hero should not be investing more than 2.5 big bets in this hand postflop. There are 4 lines that meet this objective.

1. Call down
2. Raise flop, call 3 bet, fold turn
3. Raise flop, bet/fold turn, check river
4. Call flop, raise/fold turn, check river

If we knew exactly how our opponent played postflop any of these lines could be the best line. With no real read on how our opponent plays postflop in HU situations like this I think line #1 is the best line since this line allows the hero to minimize his loss when behind and he can never get outplayed off the best hand when ahead. I think line #4, the one you advocated, is the 2nd best line. If I knew my opponent really well I would be more apt to chose lines 2-4 than line 1.

Against someone I dont know very well, HU in a Way Behind/decently ahead situation, I feel the value of showing this hand down without getting outplayed is greater than the value of trying to fold AK before the river.

Re: 10/20 TT Calldown
 

[ QUOTE ]
yeah, so why not charge them to chase?

i'm not sure where i stand on this hand, so i think i'll just keep throwing in random comments without actually saying what i'd like to do.

[/ QUOTE ]
I misread the board, I didnt realize the villain had a gutshot draw in addition to his over outs if he had a hand like AK or AQ. This new information however does not change any of my analysis. I would say this though, knowing that AK or AQ wont fold to a turn raise would make me even less apt to raise the turn. Since the villain wont fold this hand, a turn raise would be viewed as a raise for value, but since the hero is already in a Way behind/moderately ahead situation, raising to get more money in the pot is precisely what the hero should not want to do. Whenever someone is in a Way behind/moderately ahead situion in a HU pot, he will almost always do better by keeping his investment in that pot as low as possible. In this situation, saving money the times he is trailing is more important than making more money the times he is ahead.

Re: 10/20 TT Calldown
 

i think you may have convinced me, so i didn't want to explicitly say that he should raise somewhere. how does calling down save you more when you're trailing as opposed to raise/folding the turn though?

Re: 10/20 TT Calldown
 

[ QUOTE ]
i think you may have convinced me, so i didn't want to explicitly say that he should raise somewhere. how does calling down save you more when you're trailing as opposed to raise/folding the turn though?

[/ QUOTE ]
Since we know the villain will not fold his gutshot/overs to a turn raise, calling down has to make more money than raise/folding the turn and checking the river. This is so even if we assume the villain will never 3 bet the turn with a hand the hero is ahead of, thus allowing the hero to always fold correctly. In both cases the hero is investing 2BB, but in the raise the turn example the hero will sometimes not get to see the river since he will fold to a turn 3 bet. So in both scenarios the hero will be investing 2BB but only in the call down scenario will the hero get a chance to spike a set on the river every single time. Thus the hero will win more pots when he calls down.

Calling down can also potentially save the hero money if the villain is capable of 3 betting the turn with a lesser hand than TT. By calling down the hero can save all the pots he wouldve got outplayed off of had he raised/folded the turn.

Re: 10/20 TT Calldown
 

Through my experience, there have been plenty of times where Villian will cap with AK, 3-bet with AK on the flop and lead the turn in hopes of representing something he does not have. I think it is highly likely that Villian will call down here with AK, so if you play it aggressively like I suggested, you will maximize profit with your tens. I am all about maximizing profit so many times I am aggressive when others might be passive. Against Villian's range of hands, I think aggression is warranted with TT. Just calling is simply wrong.

Re: 10/20 TT Calldown
 

i still think it's close though. while i'm on your side now wes, i think CO's range is a bit wider than you do, and there's getting value out of smaller PPs and the possibility of a big ace calling the river UI (after you raise somewhere postflop) to consider.

Re: 10/20 TT Calldown
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If we raise this turn, can we fold to a 3-bet? I think the times we're raised off the best hand by a 3-bet are pretty small, so it's probably correct. It would be nice if AK doesn't want to call down our turn raise. Free showdown if he calls the rizzle.

[/ QUOTE ]
The basic theme to my posts is that the hero should not be investing more than 2.5 big bets in this hand postflop. There are 4 lines that meet this objective.

1. Call down
2. Raise flop, call 3 bet, fold turn
3. Raise flop, bet/fold turn, check river
4. Call flop, raise/fold turn, check river

If we knew exactly how our opponent played postflop any of these lines could be the best line. With no real read on how our opponent plays postflop in HU situations like this I think line #1 is the best line since this line allows the hero to minimize his loss when behind and he can never get outplayed off the best hand when ahead. I think line #4, the one you advocated, is the 2nd best line. If I knew my opponent really well I would be more apt to chose lines 2-4 than line 1.

Against someone I dont know very well, HU in a Way Behind/decently ahead situation, I feel the value of showing this hand down without getting outplayed is greater than the value of trying to fold AK before the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

I just keep calling, because he has you totally stroked, or he is betting hoping you will fold. If he has complete air, like JT, he will fold to the turn raise. This is unlikely.

Most likely, he has AA-JJ, and will either call the turn raise and check the river, or if he has AA-KK, will 3 bet the turn.

If he has AK, he isn't folding the turn raise, and if an A or K or a straight card his the board, he will probably just don't the river, costing you another bet.

On this board vs. this opponent, I'm just calling down, and bet if he checks it. Raising is just charging yourself more to see the SD.

There are plenty of oppoents that will bet 66-99 like this every street, or AQ, or AJ, or Q9s. Just let them bluff off their chips when they are behind.

Re: 10/20 TT Calldown
 

[ QUOTE ]
Through my experience, there have been plenty of times where Villian will cap with AK, 3-bet with AK on the flop and lead the turn in hopes of representing something he does not have. I think it is highly likely that Villian will call down here with AK, so if you play it aggressively like I suggested, you will maximize profit with your tens. I am all about maximizing profit so many times I am aggressive when others might be passive. Against Villian's range of hands, I think aggression is warranted with TT. Just calling is simply wrong.

[/ QUOTE ]
What about the times he has JJ-AA and takes the same flop 3-bet and turn line? You still raise a flop AND turn bet? How can calling be "simply wrong" if AK is the only hand you put in his range that we beat?

Re: 10/20 TT Calldown
 

I dont understand why so many people place him on so many HUGE hands. Yes, he may have one of these. But there are plenty of other hands he might cap with aswell PF. My opinion is that as long you have the best hand and are the favorite you should make him pay as much as possible for his 2nd best hand. Raise him on flop or turn!

Re: 10/20 TT Calldown
 

What range do you put him on?

FWIW, the range I put him on was 88-AA, maybe 77, AKs-ATs, AKo-AJo. Is this range too tight?

Re: 10/20 TT Calldown
 

You shouldn't raise anywhere and you should call this river.

In spots like this, the guy either sees your 3-bet as an attempt to start a pissing match and he caps in kind or he has a true monster. In either case, you don't want to put yourself in the spot of being pushed off the best hand nor do you want to put in a lot of bets with the second-best hand. It's best to close your eyes and just hit call/call/call.

Re: 10/20 TT Calldown
 

I raise the flop here.

Re: 10/20 TT Calldown
 

[ QUOTE ]
You shouldn't raise anywhere and you should call this river.

In spots like this, the guy either sees your 3-bet as an attempt to start a pissing match and he caps in kind or he has a true monster. In either case, you don't want to put yourself in the spot of being pushed off the best hand nor do you want to put in a lot of bets with the second-best hand. It's best to close your eyes and just hit call/call/call.

[/ QUOTE ]
I agree. Plus, in heads up, blind steal situations aggressive tags will occasionally cap with sub par hands (such as any hand they were stealing with) hoping for more fold equity post flop.

Re: 10/20 TT Calldown
 

[ QUOTE ]
Through my experience, there have been plenty of times where Villian will cap with AK, 3-bet with AK on the flop and lead the turn in hopes of representing something he does not have. I think it is highly likely that Villian will call down here with AK, so if you play it aggressively like I suggested, you will maximize profit with your tens. I am all about maximizing profit so many times I am aggressive when others might be passive. Against Villian's range of hands, I think aggression is warranted with TT. Just calling is simply wrong.

[/ QUOTE ]
It looks to me that you dont yet understand that there are times when being passive actually makes more money than being aggressive. This is so becuz the passive line will actually save you more money when youre behind then you can possibly make the times you are ahead and you take an aggressive line. IMO you have clearly not thought about this situation long enough. A good example of taking a passive line in a situation similar to this thread is in HPFAP by David Sklansky & Mason Malmuth, page 133-5. I suggest you read it. It may help you in the future.