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Big Dave D 08-23-2004 07:14 AM

A thing of beauty is a joy forever
I loved the way my foe played this - he's loose aggressive good btw. All comments welcome.

PokerStars Game: Omaha Pot Limit ($5/$10)

Seat 1: MickTheHoon ($824.50 in chips)
Seat 2: HOT TEA ($215.50 in chips)
Seat 4: c.cris ($442 in chips)
Seat 5: ungar ($628.50 in chips)
Seat 6: luckylefty ($1456.25 in chips)
Seat 7: Foe ($2117.75 in chips)
Seat 8: Hero ($4536.90 in chips)
Seat 9: TheFelt ($947 in chips)
ungar: posts small blind $5
luckylefty: posts big blind $10
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Hero [Jd 9s Ks Th]
Foe: calls $10
Hero: calls $10
TheFelt: calls $10
MickTheHoon: calls $10
HOT TEA: calls $10
c.cris: folds
ungar: folds
luckylefty: checks
*** FLOP *** [Qh 2c Ts]
luckylefty: checks
Foe: checks
Hero: bets $50
TheFelt: folds
MickTheHoon: folds
HOT TEA: folds
luckylefty: folds
Foe: raises $150 to $200
Hero: calls $150
*** TURN *** [Qh 2c Ts] [Td]
Foe: bets $100
Hero: calls $100
*** RIVER *** [Qh 2c Ts Td] [8s]
Foe: bets $500
Hero said, "im stuck"
Hero said, "gimme a clue"
Foe said, "lol"
Hero: folds
Foe collected $662 from pot
Foe: doesn't show hand

pete fabrizio 08-25-2004 11:23 AM

Re: A thing of beauty is a joy forever
I would consider reraising on the flop here, particularly if your opponent is someone who could have check-raised with top two or middle or bottom set. Besides, you are a slight favorite against a "bare" top set in this spot (53-47) -- your biggest fears are that he has something like KQQJ or 9JQK.

On the turn, your call is probably marginally -EV. No matter what hits (aside from a T), you're still hoping to be checked to on the river. Of course I call anyway, because I can't let tricky/aggressive/good players push me around with little pot underbets.

Big Dave D 08-25-2004 04:20 PM

Re: A thing of beauty is a joy forever
Good point about the set Pete, I assumed I was a very slight dog. Of course the chance of him having a completely dry trips here is slight...even a backdoor flush makes him even money. With the player in question I know he would have reraised again with QQ...he's not a stop n go type...and I didnt want to gamble. I felt exacly the same about the turn ;-)

sherbert 08-25-2004 07:43 PM

Re: A thing of beauty is a joy forever
Slightly at a tangent to the flop and turn. Can I ask why you didn't raise preflop? You are 'chip leader' and at least one of the players who calls you preflop plays really rubbish hands. Wouldn't it be better to knock out a couple of players here? It also helps define matters on the flop.

nicky g 08-26-2004 06:02 AM

Re: A thing of beauty is a joy forever
I don't understand the point in calling the turn and folding the flop. Either he had you beat on both or you were ahead on both, no? The fact that you made your straight is irrelevant (unless he had a ten with an ace) - you're either ahead of a bluff or behind a big full house (even if you fill on the river, you won;t be winning if he had trips on the flop, unless you catch the case ten; he might ahve had q 10 on the flop so you could aslo catch a king to beat him, but you don;t have the odds for either of these) on both streets. Am I missing something?

Big Dave D 08-26-2004 07:14 AM

Re: A thing of beauty is a joy forever
I'm getting better than 5 to 1 on the turn. Considering that he may have the deuces underfull, or tens over twos, or AKJT, or just be looking for a cheap draw, then these things make the call much more palatable. As Pete said, if a LAG can get u out of a pot this easily then you are going to have trouble just playing the game. I agree that its probably -EV b ut when you throw in the other factors above, including that a case Ten could be a return of 18 to 1, then its not too bad.



PS. I actually go through more of my thinking here

Big Dave D 08-26-2004 07:23 AM

Re: A thing of beauty is a joy forever
I've given up raising preflop in that game in UTG positions. I do raise on a HUGE range of hands, and even reraise, when I have position. In this game, if they were going to call $10, they will call $50. Then the problem is that it becomes an all-in fest with the short stacks.

Also, for the more observant players, I am not leaking information on my hands as I don't raise with any of the early limping hands and I will raise with a lot of my late hands.



nicky g 08-26-2004 08:19 AM

Re: A thing of beauty is a joy forever
My point wasn't that you shouldn;t fold the turn; just that that many of the reasons for calling it are reasons for calling the river too. But I missed how big odds he was giving you so there is perhaps a justification for calling to try and hit a bigger hand and folding when you miss it.

pete fabrizio 08-26-2004 03:08 PM

Re: A thing of beauty is a joy forever
Um, PLO isn't limit hold'em. There are about a billion different situations where you should be willing to call the turn but not the river.

The Gift Of Gab 08-26-2004 04:04 PM

Re: A thing of beauty is a joy forever
I'd often raise here preflop, though I understand why you didn't. I think raising some marginal hands out of position makes me look like less of a nit as well as making it easier to get short stacks in preflop when I do have aces. Also, big pots are more fun.

With smaller stacks and KQJ9 I think you have an easy flop reraise. Even if you were to get all-in as a small dog to middle set and some blockers, it would get you paid off in the future. But this is a bad idea in your situation.

If Foe bets 250-300 on the turn I think your hand is good more often than when he bets 100. I don't know that I could find a fold in your place.

Assuming Foe bets 500 in every case, what's the worst river card you'd need to call? A king is obviously good enough and I wouldn't lose sleep over folding your straight, but I think a J and 9 both put you in a tougher spot.

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