Confused again--- $200 NL
 

1/2 NL. I have 200 and cover, though its not relevent.

One limper and I limp with J8s. SB and BB are in.

Flop is 955 and two spades. Person in front of me bets $3.50 into an $8 pot. He has been fairly agressive, so I minraise him to take control, bet if the board gets scary, see if the other players have a 5 etc.

BB calls. From his previous play, he clearly has a 5.

Turn is a J. Checked around.

River is the Q of spades. Middle guy bets $5. I call, and the BB checkraises to $15. Middle guy calls. Action on me.

Call the river or fold?

Re: Confused again--- $200 NL
 

At this point call.

I'm not a big fan of chasing flush draws on a paired board. I hope J8 is not a typical calling hand for you.

Re: Confused again--- $200 NL
 

Action is a little confusing. Do you have a flush? If you do I think this is a call. I am tempted to raise since it seems like a 5 would call a bigger bet but I worry about having to fold to a reraise.

What do people think about popping this up to 35 and folding to any further raises?

Re: Confused again--- $200 NL
 

It is definately out of the range, but I was in position. I'm not chasing. Until the BB called, I thought there was a good chance I could win it on the flop or turn because MP had no hand. Its not like a lot of money is going in either way. Just a small pot(likely to be bigger if I hit, and very small if I don't).

Re: Confused again--- $200 NL
 

Fold preflop. I'm assuming your J8s is suited in spades?

I think I'm actually going to fold this on the river the second time around. BB maybe has a boat. And with the second call by MP, he's likely to have a flush, and it's likely to be bigger than yours. BB's c/r'ing the river with a 3-flush on the board??? Smells like trouble to me.

Re: Confused again--- $200 NL
 

[ QUOTE ]
It is definately out of the range, but I was in position. I'm not chasing.

[/ QUOTE ]

Okay, but if you are gonna play the playas and not your cards here, then a pre-flop raise is mandatory. You are not going to fold out three villains with anything short of a huge overbet which the guy with the 5 will happily call.

It's good to see that you understand and use position to your advantage, but often you still have to show down a good hand even when you have position.

Re: Confused again--- $200 NL
 

Call and hope your good...I don't like raising because we definitely have to question if our hand is good (it's a decent showdown hand) however it's still probably good enough for a call. I don't see the benefit of a re-raise here as was suggessted.

Agreed, I hate to chase flush draws both period and on a paired board...but you did, you hit, now see if you won for as cheap as you can.

Re: Confused again--- $200 NL
 

I make a point of never drawing to a flush on a paired flop, even for $3. Why not? Because if you play for a flush on a paired board, and you hit it on the turn or river, then your really need to expect your hand is good and therefore plan to pay off a full house for a lot of chips from time to time -- or else why bother to play for the flush in the first place? Moreover, in this case, you are drawing to a non-nut flush on a paired board, so that's even worse since villains in an unraised pot like this might have a hand like AsXs or KsXs.

As for taking control on the flop, min-raising doesn't take control. If you want to do that, play like you mean it and raise to $25, then take a free card on the turn and hope you can check behind on the river with a J-high flush. But, if such a big raise gets called on the flop, and the dude goes all-in later when that spade hits the river, there is not much that you're beating besides open trips, but you should probably call given the size of the pot and the way you chose to play the hand. After all, you made the hand you were drawing for, you wouldn't be playing for it if you didn't think it would be good, and now there's a lot of chips on the line relying on your initial read being correct.

In this case, you should call the river and not be surprised if you lose to a full house or a higher flush.

As for me, I fold suited 2-gappers even on the button (I'll play 1-gap SCs like T8s, occasionally for a raise, but fold the 2- and 3-gappers). If I'm feeling jiggy and limp on the button with a 2-gap SC like J8s, then I'd fold on a paired flop to a $3 bet from EP to avoid ending up in a big pot later with a J-high flush vs a potential higher flush or full house.

Re: Confused again--- $200 NL
 

you should thank this guy