I value call my nuts?
 

Not sure why I turned into Bill Fillmaff on this hand. Oh wait, it's because Button was a LAG monkey and I expected him to raise the turn. Eh?

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is BB with A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
UTG calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, Button calls, SB completes, Hero checks.

Flop: (4 SB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, Hero calls, UTG calls, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises</font>, SB calls, Hero calls, UTG calls.

Turn: (6 BB) T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, Hero calls...

Re: I value call my nuts?
 

well at least pop him on the river then.

Re: I value call my nuts?
 

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well at least pop him on the river then.

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How do you know that I didn't pop him on the turn after Button raised? (No results for now... I'm not saying whether that happened or not).

I'm just wondering if the best play here is to raise immediately and face the LAG button and the other guy with 2 cold, or hope that one of them raises and maybe get a cap-fest going.

Re: I value call my nuts?
 

If you think there is a good chance the button raises calling is fine. Did you give any thought to a flop 3 bet when it came back around?

Re: I value call my nuts?
 

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well at least pop him on the river then.

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How do you know that I didn't pop him on the turn after Button raised? (No results for now... I'm not saying whether that happened or not).

I'm just wondering if the best play here is to raise immediately and face the LAG button and the other guy with 2 cold, or hope that one of them raises and maybe get a cap-fest going.

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Knowing that the button is a LAG monkey I'd be inclined to hope he raises and then 3bet when it comes back to me. But I don't play against mentally retarded Party players that might cap this when I raise and the SB still calls. If players are really that bad [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img] I'd just raise here.

Edit: I'm reading through TOP and the portion on position and I realize that I wait to try this type of move too much. I like raising this on the flop better than the turn. If SB has a set we might have cap city all the way down.

Re: I value call my nuts?
 

didn't notice it wasn't HU my mistake

Re: I value call my nuts?
 

Overcalls are lovley. And the fact that you might be able to trap a large field for 3 bets is even more lovley.

Re: I value call my nuts?
 

if first to act also i will sometimes c/c the turn and c/r the river if players after are at all loose.

Re: I value call my nuts?
 

Why no flop re-raise?

Re: I value call my nuts?
 

You really should be 3-betting that flop when it comes back to you.

Re: I value call my nuts?
 

These types of hands are monsters and should be pushed hard. Easy 3 bet on the flop and hope it is capped. You have up to 14 outs here, with at least 7 to the nuts. With three folks in the hand on the flop if you three bet you are likely to go into the turn with the same three villains and a capped (huge) pot.

You probably have something like a 50% equity in the pot on the flop. This is a large EV edge and every bet that goes in is money in your pocket. On these flops I just keep hitting the raise button.

Re: I value call my nuts?
 

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it's because Button was a LAG monkey and I expected him to raise the turn.

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I think we need you to elaborate on 'LAG monkey' and 'expected'. But it looks like you're risking about 3BB to make about 8BB so he doesn't even need to raise it behind you very often.

Re: I value call my nuts?
 

Hi Clever-

I like your turn play just fine. I would 3-bet the flop, though.

Re: I value call my nuts?
 

I just wanted to make my edit clear. I like the first flop call because I like the button to hang out with us. When the button raises and the SB calls now we have the perfect opportunity to raise and build the pot up.

Re: I value call my nuts?
 

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You really should be 3-betting that flop when it comes back to you.

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You don't think that's going to slow down my action when I make my hand?

Call/3betting the flop is uber scary.

Re: I value call my nuts?
 

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You really should be 3-betting that flop when it comes back to you.

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You don't think that's going to slow down my action when I make my hand?

Call/3betting the flop is uber scary.

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Naw. If anything, it encourages people with weaker draws on flushes/straights etc to stay in and give more action if they hit, since your increased aggression is more likely to be two pair or a set. It builds a pot bigger on a multi-way flop when you have something approaching a 40-50 % equity edge (assuming your 2p/trip outs are good.) And increasing the pot now induces people with hands as weak as mid or top pair to stay in all the way through the river after you've hit.

Re: I value call my nuts?
 

[ QUOTE ]
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You really should be 3-betting that flop when it comes back to you.

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You don't think that's going to slow down my action when I make my hand?

Call/3betting the flop is uber scary.

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Naw. If anything, it encourages people with weaker draws on flushes/straights etc to stay in and give more action if they hit, since your increased aggression is more likely to be two pair or a set. It builds a pot bigger on a multi-way flop when you have something approaching a 40-50 % equity edge (assuming your 2p/trip outs are good.) And increasing the pot now induces people with hands as weak as mid or top pair to stay in all the way through the river after you've hit.

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I also tend to find when the flop gets big multiway like this people get wedded to their TP and will call down. I love these types of hands. In fact Phil Gordon goes into detail on these types of hands in his Little Green Book (yes, I know it is an NL book). He recommends a hyperaggressive approach to playing these hands due to the large number of good things that can happen when you do play them. Application to limit is a bit different, but you can afford to be very aggressive with the plethora of outs you have.

You have such an EV edge here that not pumping the pot is a decent sized leak, IMO.

Re: I value call my nuts?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Not sure why I turned into Bill Fillmaff on this hand. Oh wait, it's because Button was a LAG monkey and I expected him to raise the turn. Eh?

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is BB with A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
UTG calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, Button calls, SB completes, Hero checks.

Flop: (4 SB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, Hero calls...

[/ QUOTE ]
[img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]
I pound it right here. We're a favorite against a hand like KJo, and only a slight dog to two pair/AJ.

Re: I value call my nuts?
 

With two players left to act and button maybe raising, I like the turn call.

Re: I value call my nuts?
 

I 3 bet the flop when it comes back to me.
The nut FD + a pair = lots of equity.

How you played it, I like the turn call.

Re: I value call my nuts?
 

I like the flop call, but I would 3bet it when it gets back to me as well. You have a huge edge against this many ppl with 14 outs, make them pay.

Turn call seems fine considering the way you played it.

Re: I value call my nuts?
 

Blind reply...

I would have done what you're trying to do on the turn on the flop.

Re: I value call my nuts?
 

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[ QUOTE ]
You really should be 3-betting that flop when it comes back to you.

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You don't think that's going to slow down my action when I make my hand?

Call/3betting the flop is uber scary.

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Great, so if you miss and check the turn, they might check through. I've seen it happen. On the other hand, most 3/6 players aren't thinking on that level so they aren't ever umber scared. There's a lot of value in a raise. Your hand is very strong on the flop here with a chance to get ~1.5BB in the pot.

Re: I value call my nuts?
 

I raise the flop and raise the turn. I'm not adament about the turn though.

Krishan