Pwned by Freddie Deeb, WPT Bellagio ME
 

Ok, I played today 2 important hands with Freddie Deeb.

Hand #1:

Blinds 50-100, first level in the tournament.

David Plastik raises to 300, Freddie Deeb called 300 in the SB and I raised to 1500 with K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] in the big blind. David P folded and Freddie called.

Pot is 3300, and we both have near the original 30k stacks.

Flop is Q [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]J [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]9 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

He checked and I checked.

Turn is 5 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

Freddie bets 3000

I call

River 6 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

Freddie bets 4k

Your move?

And any comments about the preflop, flop and turn action as well.

______________________________________

Hand #2

Blinds 100-200 2nd level of the tournament

Freddie Deeb mini-raises to 400, I decided to call with 3 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]2 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], and just the BB called also.

1300 in the pot, I'm last to act.

Flop 9 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]7 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]2 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

BB checks, Freddie bets 700, I raise to 2000, BB folds and Freddie calls.

Pot is 5300

Turn Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

Freddie bets 5000 !!!!

Your move ?

Re: Pwned by Freddie Deeb, WPT Bellagio ME
 

Grunch: hand 1:
1) Bet on flop. Im not sure how much (maybe half the pot?) , I just don't like letting this board get away from me.
2) Turn: I'm not sure if he was trying to represent the flush here or if he actually had it. You have around 2 to 1 for the call, so you really need a read here to do that or maybe push?
3) River: Fold, kick a chair?

p.s. im still learning here about MTTs, but i figure the same idea applies as in the micro forum: post more, dont read the replies first. How did the hand turn out?

Re: Pwned by Freddie Deeb, WPT Bellagio ME
 

I really hate not betting the flop on hand 1.

There are 4 Aces, 9 hearts, and 8 non heart cards that would pair the board. Any of those come off on the turn and your life just got harder. Avoid difficult spots, especially against great players. I would bet 2500 on the flop there.

Hand 2 is kind of read based, we all know you have experience against Deeb, so I would think if you went with your gut, you probably did the right thing, regardless of the outcome.

That being said, it seems to me a strong flush would want to go for a CR there after the flop action.

Re: Pwned by Freddie Deeb, WPT Bellagio ME
 

I realize you had position, but I am not crazy about calling raises with 32s. It seems like the trouble you got into is more or less what would be expected.

Re: Pwned by Freddie Deeb, WPT Bellagio ME
 

Hand 1:

[ QUOTE ]
I raised to 1500 with K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Flop is Q [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]J [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]9 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

He checked and I checked.


[/ QUOTE ]

pwned.

Hand 2:


[ QUOTE ]
Freddie bets 5000 !!!!

[/ QUOTE ]

Are these happy exclamation points? The odds that you're beat here are really low.



I think you're playing way too scared. In hand 1, well you just have to bet. In hand 2, his bet doesn't make much sense, but it seems very unlikely to be a flush because he'd probably c/r. More importantly, you've got a really big hand and you've disguised it to some extent, so get money in.

Re: Pwned by Freddie Deeb, WPT Bellagio ME
 

[ QUOTE ]
I really hate not betting the flop on hand 1.

There are 4 Aces, 9 hearts, and 8 non heart cards that would pair the board.

[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't like the flop of course, but these are my reasons to check the flop

1) I want to keep the pot as small as I can.
2) I want him to think I have AK
3) I'm not that afraid of the free cards, I don't think he called a raise and a reraise with an A, possible AK and maybe AQs; but since I have KK, I think he has some pair or maybe called with suited connectors. And even if he have TT I'm not that afraid of the straight since I have 2 of the K.

Re: Pwned by Freddie Deeb, WPT Bellagio ME
 

If he can have JJ-99, I like (or at least don't hate) the check in hand 1 because this is one of those hands he can make you play for your stack but not vice versa...oh well, by the river the board sucks, next hand.

Hand 2...I'm pushing this now because I'd do the same with anything made/vulnerable.

Re: Pwned by Freddie Deeb, WPT Bellagio ME
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I really hate not betting the flop on hand 1.

There are 4 Aces, 9 hearts, and 8 non heart cards that would pair the board.

[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't like the flop of course, but these are my reasons to check the flop

1) I want to keep the pot as small as I can.
2) I want him to think I have AK
3) I'm not that afraid of the free cards, I don't think he called a raise and a reraise with an A, possible AK and maybe AQs; but since I have KK, I think he has some pair or maybe called with suited connectors. And even if he have TT I'm not that afraid of the straight since I have 2 of the K.

[/ QUOTE ]

The range you gave includes JT, 9T, as well as 4h5h, 5h6h, 6h7h, 7h8h, KhQh, KQ, AK, AQs. I don't see why you're not afraid of giving free cards.

Re: Pwned by Freddie Deeb, WPT Bellagio ME
 

[ QUOTE ]

2) I want him to think I have AK

[/ QUOTE ]

Wouldn't you cont. bet/semi-bluff in this spot with AK?

Re: Pwned by Freddie Deeb, WPT Bellagio ME
 

In the first hand I think someone who re-raises substantially preflop and doesn't bet out on the flop looks too suspicious.

Re: Pwned by Freddie Deeb, WPT Bellagio ME
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

2) I want him to think I have AK

[/ QUOTE ]

Wouldn't you cont. bet/semi-bluff in this spot with AK?

[/ QUOTE ]

On a QJ9 board...no.

Re: Pwned by Freddie Deeb, WPT Bellagio ME
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

2) I want him to think I have AK

[/ QUOTE ]

Wouldn't you cont. bet/semi-bluff in this spot with AK?

[/ QUOTE ]

No.

Re: Pwned by Freddie Deeb, WPT Bellagio ME
 

Call me crazy, but I think not strongly leading the flop in Hand 1 is a terrible mistake. Why keep the pot small? You almost certainly have the best hand!

Hand 2, please fold pre-flop.

Re: Pwned by Freddie Deeb, WPT Bellagio ME
 

[ QUOTE ]
Call me crazy, but I think not strongly leading the flop in Hand 1 is a terrible mistake. Why keep the pot small? You almost certainly have the best hand!

Hand 2, please fold pre-flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree on both points.

In hand 1, it is a dangerous board, but you have an overpair and gut shot. You are not that big a dog against 2 pair and you have outs against a set or straight. Villain could easily give you action with a pair plus open ended, TPTK, or something and be way behind. I would raise and be ready to go allin.

I don't understand the point of calling with 32s. You could easily make a straight, a flush, or 2-pair and go bust. This seems like a decent hand to steal raise with, creating great deception, but why call.

Also, I don't think you are a much better than average player at this level of tournament. Someone like Negreanu might call here hoping to out play postflop with position. You wound up in a hand with Freddy Deeb with 32s. You make a flush and you don't know where you stand.

Re: Pwned by Freddie Deeb, WPT Bellagio ME
 

Hand 1: I bet pot, and proceed very carefully, as it turns out, you have to fold this river.

Hand 2: shove. a lead like that is often weak.

Re: Pwned by Freddie Deeb, WPT Bellagio ME
 

Against a guy like Deeb I would pick my strong hands and play them very decisively. Hand 1 is just such a hand. I would be trying to put him to the tough decisions when I am holding strong hands. I wouldn't be looking to tangle with him post-flop with 32s unless I'm getting great odds and willing to drop it unless I flop the nuts.

Re: Pwned by Freddie Deeb, WPT Bellagio ME
 

[ QUOTE ]
Against a guy like Deeb I would pick my strong hands and play them very decisively.

[/ QUOTE ]

a pair of kings is not a strong hand. thinking like this is what makes freddy deeb a lot of money.

Re: Pwned by Freddie Deeb, WPT Bellagio ME
 

On the first hand I would have played it completely differently. I would have not checked to let Freddy see the turn for free. I would have made a 3/4 pot bet on the flop. If I played the hand like you I would have tossed the first hand after the river since I had no hearts.
The second hand after Freddy bets 5k, I would have pushed all in on him. What could he possibly have, top pair, a higher pocket pair, or maybe he caught the queen on the turn for his Ace Queen hand?

Re: Pwned by Freddie Deeb, WPT Bellagio ME
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Against a guy like Deeb I would pick my strong hands and play them very decisively.

[/ QUOTE ]

a pair of kings is not a strong hand. thinking like this is what makes freddy deeb a lot of money.

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL!

Re: Pwned by Freddie Deeb, WPT Bellagio ME
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Against a guy like Deeb I would pick my strong hands and play them very decisively.

[/ QUOTE ]

a pair of kings is not a strong hand. thinking like this is what makes freddy deeb a lot of money.

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL!

[/ QUOTE ]

my dude,

this isn't a party super tournament where everyone has 75 bb and you get about 2.5 orbits per level. this is a tournament in which the stacks are 300 bb each and there is a shitload of money on the line. if you are willing to go broke with one measly pair in this situation, i wish you the best of luck.

johnny

Re: Pwned by Freddie Deeb, WPT Bellagio ME
 

[ QUOTE ]

my dude,

this isn't a party super tournament where everyone has 75 bb and you get about 2.5 orbits per level. this is a tournament in which the stacks are 300 bb each and there is a shitload of money on the line. if you are willing to go broke with one measly pair in this situation, i wish you the best of luck.

johnny

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree, but there's a difference between committing your stack and betting like 1/10 of it here with an overpair and a gutshot.

Re: Pwned by Freddie Deeb, WPT Bellagio ME
 

Noah,

Here is what will happen...maybe not 99%, but definitely most of the time you bet 2500 with one pair (no matter what pair that is) on this board given Deeb's PF range:

Freddie Deeb calls, or makes it 3x your bet.

Now what?

If you call his CR, how comfortable do you feel on 25-ish turn cards when he either bets 10K of his 22K or pushes into a 15K pot?

Re: Pwned by Freddie Deeb, WPT Bellagio ME
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Against a guy like Deeb I would pick my strong hands and play them very decisively.

[/ QUOTE ]

a pair of kings is not a strong hand. thinking like this is what makes freddy deeb a lot of money.

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL!

[/ QUOTE ]

my dude,

this isn't a party super tournament where everyone has 75 bb and you get about 2.5 orbits per level. this is a tournament in which the stacks are 300 bb each and there is a shitload of money on the line. if you are willing to go broke with one measly pair in this situation, i wish you the best of luck.

johnny

[/ QUOTE ]

Decisive doesn't mean blindly pushing in your whole stack, "dude."

Re: Pwned by Freddie Deeb, WPT Bellagio ME
 

[ QUOTE ]
I agree, but there's a difference between committing your stack and betting like 1/10 of it here with an overpair and a gutshot.


[/ QUOTE ]

What are you doing if you bet the flop and he raises?

Any time you make a bet in the flop, you have to take in account all the possible action generated by such bet, especially with stacks this deep.

Re: Pwned by Freddie Deeb, WPT Bellagio ME
 

I like your play on every street of both hands and agree with the reasons you gave. I think calling a min-raise with small suited connectors, position (edit), and stacks that deep is a no brainer. I'm really interested to see the decisions you made on these hands.

Hand 1:

The only thing I might do differently is raise the turn. It's a good way to find out if he's just messing around, and lets you protect against the 4th heart. He'll probably fold a decent amount here. If he raises, you fold. If he calls, you may still have the best hand and you've probably just earned a free showdown on the river.

As played, I don't think the river is an obvious fold, only because I'd probably play Deeb's hand in the same manner even if I didn't have any cards. He could have a big heart but he could absolutely have air here. Still, I probably sigh, fold, and hate myself for it because I'm far from convinced.

Hand 2: He turned a set of Queens? Well, maybe he did and maybe he didn't, but I like everything you did here and I think you're ahead. If I knew he had a set, I'd raise, but my default here is to call him down. Protecting your hand does have some value, but I don't know that it's enough to offset the times when you push ~30k in chips in and get busted. Also, you'd take away his chance to bluff the river with the worst hand.

Re: Pwned by Freddie Deeb, WPT Bellagio ME
 

[ QUOTE ]
I like your play on every street of both hands and agree with the reasons you gave. I think calling a min-raise with small suited connectors and stacks that deep is a no brainer. I'm really interested to see the decisions you made on these hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

But he didn't have a suited connector.

Re: Pwned by Freddie Deeb, WPT Bellagio ME
 

[ QUOTE ]
But he didn't have a suited connector.

[/ QUOTE ]

We can debate semantics all day, but calling a min-raise in position, with stacks that deep, is almost always worth it. 32 would look pretty sexy to me in this spot.

Re: Pwned by Freddie Deeb, WPT Bellagio ME
 

[ QUOTE ]
Decisive doesn't mean blindly pushing in your whole stack, "dude."

[/ QUOTE ]

what does it mean then? betting at it hard and becoming pot committed when he shoves his set, or flush, or straight flush draw at you?

ps. part of the value of position, is that you don't have to play every hand decisively

Re: Pwned by Freddie Deeb, WPT Bellagio ME
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I agree, but there's a difference between committing your stack and betting like 1/10 of it here with an overpair and a gutshot.


[/ QUOTE ]

What are you doing if you bet the flop and he raises?

[/ QUOTE ]

How much does he raise?

Depends on context. Maybe I muck and say, "that's what I get for trying a bluff on Freddie." Or, maybe I call and blind check the turn to see what he does. Or, maybe I call and lead out again calmly.

Re: Pwned by Freddie Deeb, WPT Bellagio ME
 

I'm all jacked up. I didn't realize Freddie is in the SB. Let me rethink this. Sorry about that.

Re: Pwned by Freddie Deeb, WPT Bellagio ME
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
But he didn't have a suited connector.

[/ QUOTE ]

We can debate semantics all day, but calling a min-raise in position, with stacks that deep, is almost always worth it. 32 would look pretty sexy to me in this spot.

[/ QUOTE ]

654 and A54 make straights. You can also make a nut low flush and nut low 2 pair.

If you want limp behind or call a miniraise with any 2 on the button (was he on the button?), I suppose this is OK.

Re: Pwned by Freddie Deeb, WPT Bellagio ME
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Decisive doesn't mean blindly pushing in your whole stack, "dude."

[/ QUOTE ]

what does it mean then? betting at it hard and becoming pot committed when he shoves his set, or flush, or straight flush draw at you?

ps. part of the value of position, is that you don't have to play every hand decisively

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree regarding position, I was jacked up on where Freddie was at.

Although, that doesn't change much regarding playing this particular hand decisively. By decisively, I mean I really like the preflop raise that drew Freddie into a big pot while we had position with a monster hand.

Post-flop, being decisive means playing the hand straight forward until you have a reason not to. He checked, I have an overpair and there are draws on the board. I bet 2/3 to full pot bet. This is where I think the mistake was made by David.

Re: Pwned by Freddie Deeb, WPT Bellagio ME
 

Thanks for posting these David.

Hand #1 I think that you have to make some kind of information bet along the way. Either you bet the flop or you raise the turn. Your hand seems worthless to me on the river here. I puke inside when that flop comes up anyway. There are so many ways you could be losing here.

On hand two, I think you decided to play a "tricky" hand, you actually hit it(!!!!!) Did you get paralyzed when a good player made a pot sized bet on the turn?? Its really easy to sit in front of the computer trying to put Deeb on a hand here- far far different from sitting at the table. I haven't played with him before, but this kind of bet seems like he has an overpair or top pair, and he probably has a big heart to go with it. He also could have a set of Queens. There is some "kill phil" logic to pushing here, hoping that he only has one heart and will give up. If you push into a bigger flush then it wasn't your day....

Re: Pwned by Freddie Deeb, WPT Bellagio ME
 

[ QUOTE ]
Noah,

Here is what will happen...maybe not 99%, but definitely most of the time you bet 2500 with one pair (no matter what pair that is) on this board given Deeb's PF range:

Freddie Deeb calls, or makes it 3x your bet.

Now what?

If you call his CR, how comfortable do you feel on 25-ish turn cards when he either bets 10K of his 22K or pushes into a 15K pot?

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with you that this is a tough spot. I disagree that we get into it 99% of the time. I think we've both oversimplified the situation.

You may be right though... I'm not giving enough weight to the very slim range Deeb can put us on.

Re: Pwned by Freddie Deeb, WPT Bellagio ME
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Noah,

Here is what will happen...maybe not 99%, but definitely most of the time you bet 2500 with one pair (no matter what pair that is) on this board given Deeb's PF range:

Freddie Deeb calls, or makes it 3x your bet.

Now what?

If you call his CR, how comfortable do you feel on 25-ish turn cards when he either bets 10K of his 22K or pushes into a 15K pot?

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with you that this is a tough spot. I disagree that we get into it 99% of the time. I think we've both oversimplified the situation.

You may be right though... I'm not giving enough weight to the very slim range Deeb can put us on.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I may not be giving full credit to the texture of this situation. Great appreciation to David for posting this and giving us all such great situations to chew on.

Re: Pwned by Freddie Deeb, WPT Bellagio ME
 

Thanks for the posts. Much obliged.

Hand 1 Freddie can have anything. The tourny is very deepstacked and he wound up in the pot on the installment plan. Given his loose reputation putting him on a hand
is very difficult. He's also going to use his image to
his advantage. I think there are way too many scare cards
on the turn to give him a free card. I make a pot sized
bet on the flop and play accordingly.

Hand 2, come on everyone, this is a big [censored] deep stack tournament. Calling a miniraise with 32s, although it might not be a great play, can't be too bad a play. I guess I must have a lot of leaks because I would be tempted
to play 32s on the button against Freddie. He's too damn
aggressive for this not to have big implied odds. On the
turn I'm willing to go broke with a made hand. I can't put
Freddie on a flush. If he does god bless him. In a headsup
situation I can't specifically put villian on a flush or straight.

Bruce

Re: Pwned by Freddie Deeb, WPT Bellagio ME
 

HAND ONE:

Freddy's range of hands is too large, and as such, I like your intent to keep the pot small. As long as the river isn't a heart, you are getting nice EV for your kings, especially given the scary board. Unfortunately, in this situation, you don't prepare yourself at all for the worst -if a fourth heart comes out.

I fold the river here - I don't see how you win this. at this point.

If it were me, I would have bet out the flop here. My intent would not be to keep this pot small on wait for cards. I would bet the pot on the flop and hope that Deeb folds. If he reraises, I can put him all-in with 2 more kings and four tens to the straight draw. If he has a set, then so be it.

I don't know what your stack size is on the 2nd level. However, this funky on Freddy's behalf. I push.

Argun

Re: Pwned by Freddie Deeb, WPT Bellagio ME
 

[ QUOTE ]
I don't know what your stack size is on the 2nd level. However, this funky on Freddy's behalf. I push.


[/ QUOTE ]

On hand #2, I started with about 21k, and Freddie has more than that, probably around 30k

Re: Pwned by Freddie Deeb, WPT Bellagio ME
 

David,

I really don't know how you fold hand #2. I assume you just called and a scare card came on the river?

-Scott

Re: Pwned by Freddie Deeb, WPT Bellagio ME
 

Hand 1. I play it the same way, fold the river.

Hand 2. Push, if he has a better flush so be it. I think 1 pair and a big heart, or a set are much too likely to give a free card or fold.