Evidence AGAINST Christianity
 

In other threads, I have expressed my belief that when evaluated objectively, evidence for Christianity makes it more likely to be true than other religions (or atheism). Much of the evidence is circumstantial, but the substantial amount that exists makes Christianity worth considering. This includes evidence that the universe was created, that the universe was designed, that the Bible is true, that Jesus existed, and that the Resurrection took place, just to name a few.

Meanwhile, Sklanksy continues to preach the opposite!

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"I have no qualms with people believing whatever they want to believe, as long as they aren't forcing those beliefs on others or using their beliefs to hurt people."

For me not to have a problem requires also that they admit that objective evidence points away from their belief.


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I bring this up because the only evidence I've ever seen David present AGAINST Christianity is:

1. The smarter the person, the less likely he is to be a Christian.

2. Because the world's major religions believe share opposing beliefs, each is an underdog to be right.

3. Christians have a disease similar to stroke victims who can't accept the fact that they are paralyzed. Therefore, Christians are unable to evaluate evidence objectively.

This evidence is based on David's opinions derived from his perspective. Not once has he referenced a study or a reasonable analysis as to why this evidence is correct.

As for #2, the way to determine whose beliefs are more likely to be correct is to evaluate the specific evidence. The simple fact that different people might hold opposing beliefs does not necessarily mean that one is not correct. It could very well be that because other beliefs are so similar, one of them is correct while the others are just close.

Re: Evidence AGAINST Christianity
 

"This includes evidence that the universe was created, that the universe was designed, that the Bible is true, that Jesus existed, and that the Resurrection took place, just to name a few."

You start off with a huge assumption that essentially is the fundemental gap between the arguing groups (yeah, i'm lumping everyone in either one camp or da other). If you accept these things to be true (or at least that the "evidence" supporting them is believable) then sure Christianity is a favorite (and a big stinkin' one at that). But you are starting with that assumption and working backwards, beginning with your acceptance of the evidence of these "truths". The other side doesn't believe in them. The evidence that the resurrection to place isn't even worthy of being called evidence in some people's opinions.

Re: Evidence AGAINST Christianity
 

Evidence against is obviously a tricky business, as I know you don't have any evidence against the Chicken overlord theory.

I believe the correct process is to start from a blank slate, and Christianity assumes too much to start needing evidence against it.

BTW, there is lots of circumstantial evidence which I believe sufficient to discredit it. At each stage the church seems to back down or change its story, claiming something is now taken to be metaphorical rather than literal. Presumably if atheism could be proven, the church would say they knew all along that the God discribed in the Bible was a metaphorical reference to human spirituality and they never claimed he was a real entity.

Re: Evidence AGAINST Christianity
 

<font color="blue"> I bring this up because the only evidence I've ever seen David present AGAINST Christianity is: </font>

You do not need to present evidence against something for which no realiable evidence exists in the first place.

<font color="blue">Not once has he referenced a study or a reasonable analysis as to why this evidence is correct. </font>

You are correct about this and I agree it would be helpful and productive to cite a reference before making such claims.

<font color="blue"> As for #2, the way to determine whose beliefs are more likely to be correct is to evaluate the specific evidence. </font>

There IS no specific evidence! You will run into some of the same problems with someone who believes in another God as an atheist will run into with you. That is, all he has to do is at some point force you to prove a negative. He will then use your inabililty to do so to justify his beliefs.

Re: Evidence AGAINST Christianity
 

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This includes evidence that the universe was created, that the universe was designed, that the Bible is true, that Jesus existed, and that the Resurrection took place

[/ QUOTE ] This is laughable, the only one of these that points to xtainity is the Resurrection. And that seems pretty dubious.

Re: Evidence AGAINST Christianity
 

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I bring this up because the only evidence I've ever seen David present AGAINST Christianity is:

You do not need to present evidence against something for which no realiable evidence exists in the first place.


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Sklanksy said (and I quoted in the OP) "objective evidence points away". And to answer your other point, the evidence for Christianity is abundant.

Re: Evidence AGAINST Christianity
 

Show me the evidence against the flying spaghetti monster. Clearly THAT must be true.

Re: Evidence AGAINST Christianity
 

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evidence that the Bible is true

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Do you really want us to go piece by piece through the Bible and present evidence/rationale why events contained therein are likely not true? You'll just say that we shouldn't take the whole thing literally (theists are very selective about what must be true, what may be true, and what likely isn't true, a nice game to be able to play with the source of your beliefs). If we raise "evidence" that certain aspects may be taken a different way, or those perpetuating the word had a vested interest, or a myriad of other reasons that should raise reasonable skeptical concern, you'll just dismiss all that, too, as atheist's bias. So, it's a no-win proposal to debate these issues with you.

Re: Evidence AGAINST Christianity
 

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Show me the evidence against the flying spaghetti monster. Clearly THAT must be true.

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As I stated in another reply within this thread, Sklanksy said that "objective evidence points away [from Christianity]". I'm simply asking for that evidence.

As for your flying spaghetti monster, I'm going to assume from your post that you believe that God is simply some entity who was made up in the minds of men years ago. Am I right?

For this to be true, two questions would have to be answered in the affirmative:

1. Would such a fabrication be so demanding as the God of the Bible? The Biblical God is 100% holy and demands that we be as well. Living more morally than those around us is not enough to gain His acceptance.

2. Would most humans continue to believe in such a creature for their entire lives? Regardless of the specifics, most people believe in the existence of some type of a god. Sklansky says Christians have a disease about this, but even he says some type of God is plausible. We give up the idea of Santa Claus by age 10. Why do we hold on to the idea of God?

Undoubtedly, you will point out that the above questions "are not proof", and you're right. They aren't proof...by themselves. The possibility of a God, however, should lead you to look at the other evidence. The evidence for Christianity, as I stated earlier, is abundant.

Re: Evidence AGAINST Christianity
 

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Do you really want us to go piece by piece through the Bible and present evidence/rationale why events contained therein are likely not true?

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Yes, especially because when I asked you in an earlier thread what made you leave Christianity, you told me it was because the idea of God sounded implausible. Hardly an objective evaluation.

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You'll just say that we shouldn't take the whole thing literally (theists are very selective about what must be true, what may be true, and what likely isn't true, a nice game to be able to play with the source of your beliefs).

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Don't assume too much about what I believe. I believe the Bible to be 100% true, word for word.

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If we raise "evidence" that certain aspects may be taken a different way, or those perpetuating the word had a vested interest, or a myriad of other reasons that should raise reasonable skeptical concern, you'll just dismiss all that, too, as atheist's bias. So, it's a no-win proposal to debate these issues with you.

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Again, you're assuming you will win that debate. I'm challenging you because I don't think you can do it. You haven't in the past.

Re: Evidence AGAINST Christianity
 

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Do you really want us to go piece by piece through the Bible and present evidence/rationale why events contained therein are likely not true?

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Yes, especially because when I asked you in an earlier thread what made you leave Christianity, you told me it was because the idea of God sounded implausible. Hardly an objective evaluation.

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Can you point me to this, because I've studied the NT cover-to-cover and the teachings of the church and also a lot of non-Christian sources and came to a very well-thought out opinion that the Bible was bunk. Your summation of my "conversion" is totally off the mark.

Re: Evidence AGAINST Christianity
 

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I believe the Bible to be 100% true, word for word.

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Then there is no point in anybody discussing this issue with you.

Re: Evidence AGAINST Christianity
 

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1. Would such a fabrication be so demanding as the God of the Bible?


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This is an excellent point. The God of the Bible is absolutely the LAST God any sinner in his right mind would invent. The fact that people don't get this is proof of their bias and lack of knowledge of Christianity.

What God did DS invent? What God did Islam invent? What God did Mormonism invent? But an honest Christian will tell you that he can never take his salvation for granted and it's theoretically possible he is still under the wrath of the God he "invented"? Most of us aren't that stupid.

Re: Evidence AGAINST Christianity
 

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Do you really want us to go piece by piece through the Bible and present evidence/rationale why events contained therein are likely not true?

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Yes, especially because when I asked you in an earlier thread what made you leave Christianity, you told me it was because the idea of God sounded implausible. Hardly an objective evaluation.

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Can you point me to this, because I've studied the NT cover-to-cover and the teachings of the church and also a lot of non-Christian sources and came to a very well-thought out opinion that the Bible was bunk. Your summation of my "conversion" is totally off the mark.

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here
KIDLUCKEE:
It was based on the Bible (and how I was raised and educated, of course). I read the Bible myself and took my faith very seriously.
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TXAG007:
So how did you reason the Bible to be incorrect? The reason I ask is because I believe appearances of conflict within the Bible to be resolved when placed in the proper context.
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KIDLUCKEE:
A "god" created the universe.

He sent his "son" to save us from our "sins."

If we have "faith" in this "god" we will have "eternal" life.

These are but a few of the "details" that trouble me. Are they so easily resolved?

Re: Evidence AGAINST Christianity
 

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Do you really want us to go piece by piece through the Bible and present evidence/rationale why events contained therein are likely not true?

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Yes, especially because when I asked you in an earlier thread what made you leave Christianity, you told me it was because the idea of God sounded implausible. Hardly an objective evaluation.

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Can you point me to this, because I've studied the NT cover-to-cover and the teachings of the church and also a lot of non-Christian sources and came to a very well-thought out opinion that the Bible was bunk. Your summation of my "conversion" is totally off the mark.

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here
KIDLUCKEE:
It was based on the Bible (and how I was raised and educated, of course). I read the Bible myself and took my faith very seriously.
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TXAG007:
So how did you reason the Bible to be incorrect? The reason I ask is because I believe appearances of conflict within the Bible to be resolved when placed in the proper context.
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KIDLUCKEE:
A "god" created the universe.

He sent his "son" to save us from our "sins."

If we have "faith" in this "god" we will have "eternal" life.

These are but a few of the "details" that trouble me. Are they so easily resolved?

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And you think my response in that thread equates to your original characterization? This is further example why debate with you is futile. My point in that thread was that my turn from the faith wasn't due to some minor inconsistencies (as you alluded to) but were due to the very basic axioms of the faith.

Re: Evidence AGAINST Christianity
 

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The God of the Bible is absolutely the LAST God any sinner in his right mind would invent.

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Two problems here. First, if you truly believe this, you must concede that God in the Bible is vindictive and cruel. If you believe the God in the Bible is graceful and wants you to go to heaven, you are lying with this statement. Second, an angry God who is willing to punish and demands your faith is exactly the first kind of God powerful monarchs and dictators would create.

Re: Evidence AGAINST Christianity
 

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First, if you truly believe this, you must concede that God in the Bible is vindictive and cruel. If you believe the God in the Bible is graceful and wants you to go to heaven, you are lying with this statement.


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Not if I'm a sinner, guilty before God, Who would be just to condemn me. A just God is not what I would be looking for. The great grandfather in the sky that so many atheists think we believe in is what I would want.

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the first kind of God powerful monarchs and dictators would create.


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You mean powerful monarchs and dictators like Jesus (crucified), Peter (crucified upside down) and Paul (also martyred)?

Re: Evidence AGAINST Christianity
 

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1. Would such a fabrication be so demanding as the God of the Bible? The Biblical God is 100% holy and demands that we be as well. Living more morally than those around us is not enough to gain His acceptance.

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Why does God create beings that are incapable of doing what he wants to accept them? By this reasoning, each and every one of us were created by God who KNEW we couldn't be 100% holy, yet expects us to be anyway.

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We give up the idea of Santa Claus by age 10. Why do we hold on to the idea of God?

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Stupidity? I stopped believing around 12 ^_^

Re: Evidence AGAINST Christianity
 

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The God of the Bible is absolutely the LAST God any sinner in his right mind would invent.

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Not if said sinner's purpose was not to uplift, but to enslave his fellow humans. In that case, he couldn't have done much better.

Re: Evidence AGAINST Christianity
 

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Not if I'm a sinner, guilty before God, Who would be just to condemn me. A just God is not what I would be looking for.

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If you believe this than you believe there is no difference between yourself and Hitler.

Re: Evidence AGAINST Christianity
 

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The God of the Bible is absolutely the LAST God any sinner in his right mind would invent.

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Nietzsche has written extensively on this subject and already explained how this kind of God is EXACTLY the kind of God the powerless would create, for it levels the playing field and reduces all men to insignicance and unworthiness, and raises the believers (the powerless in society) to be the chosen people who will one day gain all the riches of heaven while their oppressors burn in hell for eternity.

Re: Evidence AGAINST Christianity
 

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but to enslave his fellow humans.


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Rats. Now I've got to free my myriads of slaves. What a bore.

Re: Evidence AGAINST Christianity
 

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If you believe this than you believe there is no difference between yourself and Hitler.


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You're starting to get the idea.

Re: Evidence AGAINST Christianity
 

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If you believe this than you believe there is no difference between yourself and Hitler.


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You're starting to get the idea.

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The point being you don't truly believe God would be just to condemn you, otherwise it is over and you wouldn't try. You have faith and do good acts so that possibly one day God would be just to reward you with heaven.

Re: Evidence AGAINST Christianity
 

<font color="blue"> Again, you're assuming you will win that debate. I'm challenging you because I don't think you can do it. You haven't in the past. </font>

He can't win! No one could.. How do you even begin an intelligent debate with somebody who insists that the bible be taken literally word for word? Let's try...

I can PROVE to you with an abundance of overwhelming evidence that man is perfectly capable of developing different languages on his own and that this diversity in language did not have to come down from God in one fell swoop as the bible claims.

Do you require proof? Or do you acknowledge that man could have developed all the languages we speak on his own?

Re: Evidence AGAINST Christianity
 

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The point being you don't truly believe God would be just to condemn you, otherwise it is over and you wouldn't try.


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I don't try in the sense of earning God's favor through good works. "Salvation is by grace through faith." It is a "gift of God, not according to works, that no one should boast."

And I do truly believe God would be just in condemning me. "All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God". "There is NONE righeous, no NOT ONE".

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You have faith and do good acts so that possibly one day God would be just to reward you with heaven.


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Yes - faith for salvation, "good works which God prepared beforehand that I should walk in them" for reward. But "what do I have that I have not received?". God is "just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Christ" because Christ died for our sins - but for His work on the cross all mankind would be condemned.

Re: Evidence AGAINST Christianity
 

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man is perfectly capable of developing different languages on his own


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Where does the Bible say otherwise?

Re: Evidence AGAINST Christianity
 

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The point being you don't truly believe God would be just to condemn you, otherwise it is over and you wouldn't try.


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I don't try in the sense of earning God's favor through good works. "Salvation is by grace through faith." It is a "gift of God, not according to works, that no one should boast."

And I do truly believe God would be just in condemning me. "All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God". "There is NONE righeous, no NOT ONE".

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You have faith and do good acts so that possibly one day God would be just to reward you with heaven.


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Yes - faith for salvation, "good works which God prepared beforehand that I should walk in them" for reward. But "what do I have that I have not received?". God is "just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Christ" because Christ died for our sins - but for His work on the cross all mankind would be condemned.

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Wow, I can't believe I ever bought into this crap. When I used to say that batshit I hope I didn't sound as eery. Thank god (badoom ching) that I realized at a relatively early age that the jesus that saves does not exist. Or at least if he does he's a jerk that doesn't save everyone that sincerely asks.

Re: Evidence AGAINST Christianity
 

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And I do truly believe God would be just in condemning me.


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Does this mean "God will always be just in condemning me, but may be just in rewarding me also"?

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Yes - faith for salvation, "good works which God prepared beforehand that I should walk in them" for reward. But "what do I have that I have not received?". God is "just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Christ" because Christ died for our sins - but for His work on the cross all mankind would be condemned.

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Clearly there are worse Gods who could be invented which did not have grace and would not have allowed their son to die for our sins.

Re: Evidence AGAINST Christianity
 

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doesn't save everyone that sincerely asks.


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Where do you get this stuff?

Re: Evidence AGAINST Christianity
 

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man is perfectly capable of developing different languages on his own


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Where does the Bible say otherwise?

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Genesis 10:32 "These are the clans of Noah's sons, according to their lines of descent, within their nations. From these the nations spread out over the earth after the flood."

Genesis 11:1 "Now the whole world had one language and a common speech"

You don't think there is any evidence in other cultures that goes back this far and also shows that the whole world didn't speak one language then? Do you really believe that there is enough time from this point until now for all the other races of earth to have evolved their defining characteristics? You really think that everyone on earth is related to Noah, who doesn't go back all that far in history? Really?

Re: Evidence AGAINST Christianity
 

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man is perfectly capable of developing different languages on his own




Where does the Bible say otherwise?

Re: Evidence AGAINST Christianity
 

I don't think you've summarized David's case correctly. David has shown how logically clear thinking substantially diminishes the chance that Christianity is correct. This is not based on his opinions; rather his opinions are based on this logic.

On point 2, one thing I tried to point out in my two long posts on Christianity a while back, is that different people's religious beliefs throughout the world show a logical consistency with the circumstances of their geography, history, existence, and method of subsistence. This shows me that it is much more likely that their god was a result of their existence rather than the other way around.

Re: Evidence AGAINST Christianity
 

Heh, shows what I know and why I shouldn't be the one taking on biblical debates.

I also thought God became angry about the Tower of Babylon and caused the people to speak in different tongues so they would not understand one another and this is why we speak different languages today.

Re: Evidence AGAINST Christianity
 

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Does this mean "God will always be just in condemning me, but may be just in rewarding me also"?


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"There is therefore now no condemnation to them that are in Christ Jesus".

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Clearly there are worse Gods who could be invented which did not have grace and would not have allowed their son to die for our sins.


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Of course. I didn't say the God of the Bible is a bad God. I said He isn't what a guilty sinner would invent.

Re: Evidence AGAINST Christianity
 

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man is perfectly capable of developing different languages on his own




Where does the Bible say otherwise?

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You are ducking the issue. The Bible DOES say that differing languages started after the time of Noah and after the Tower of Babel. Who cares that it doesn't say that men may also have created languages AFTER this event (but not before!!). This is your typical method of arguing. You claimed word-for-word truth and that no evidence exists to counter the literal bible. Well, let's start here. Please explain how all language and all races emerged only after the time of Noah.

Re: Evidence AGAINST Christianity
 

"We give up the idea of Santa Claus by age 10. Why do we hold on to the idea of God?"

Because we see evidence that the presents come from friends and relatives, rather than Santa. We hold onto God because we don't know where the universe came from nor what happens to us after we die. Ignorance and fear. Ignorance might not be quite the correct word.

Re: Evidence AGAINST Christianity
 

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I also thought God became angry about the Tower of Babylon and caused the people to speak in different tongues so they would not understand one another


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Correct.

Re: Evidence AGAINST Christianity
 

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Of course. I didn't say the God of the Bible is a bad God. I said He isn't what a guilty sinner would invent.

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As for appeal to the psyche, a God that probably shouldn't forgive you, but does, is better than a God who just thinks you're great and that you don't make mistakes.

Re: Evidence AGAINST Christianity
 

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man is perfectly capable of developing different languages on his own




Where does the Bible say otherwise?