Two Plus Two Older Archives - Okay, Ed, I raised.

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- - Okay, Ed, I raised. (http://archives2.twoplustwo.com/showthread.php?t=393869)

Okay, Ed, I raised.

Okay, Ed, I raised.

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...n=0&page=0

My previous stats:

1/2 40,319 hands

VP$IP 18.09
W$WSF 32.17
WSD 31.22
W$SD 50.64
PFR 7.70
Aggression 2.95/2.65/2.16
Amount won ($473.13) -237 BB
BB/100 (0.59)

My stats since you told me I needed to get my PFR up to double digits (11/28):

1/2 7,350 hands

VP$IP 17.48
W$WSF 30.68
WSD 30.94
W$SD 52.32
PFR 9.39
Aggression 3.49/2.44/1.89
Amount won ($311.00) -156 BB
BB/100 (2.12)

And for the OP, who never has insane downswings, my latest session:

1/2 142 hands
VP$IP 16.90
W$WSF 13.79
WSD 31.03
W$SD 11.11
PFR 8.45
Aggression 2.33/1.60/1.00
Amount won ($96.75) -48 BB
BB/100 (34.07)

I could have played another thousand hands to try and get back close to even for the day, but after losing two buy-ins in less than an hour, I decided to quit.

Now what?

Re: Okay, Ed, I raised.

I would think that you either are still on a downswing, are/were on tilt, or play post flop poorly. Besides, 7,350 hands isn't that much. It is possible to go on an extended downswing due to bad luck. Don't be so results oriented; play one hand at a time and try to make the best decision.

Re: Okay, Ed, I raised.

[ QUOTE ]
I would think that you either are still on a downswing, are/were on tilt, or play post flop poorly. Besides, 7,350 hands isn't that much

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: Okay, Ed, I raised.

[ QUOTE ]

VP$IP 18.09
W$WSF 32.17
WSD 31.22
W$SD 50.64
PFR 7.70
Aggression 2.95/2.65/2.16

VP$IP 17.48
W$WSF 30.68
WSD 30.94
W$SD 52.32
PFR 9.39
Aggression 3.49/2.44/1.89

[/ QUOTE ]

those two sets of stats, while perhaps not optimal, are capable of turning a profit.

you might just be on a downswing as of late. but considering your recent downswing and those 40K hands of losing poker, i suspect that you have a fair amount of leaks in your game. most of which aren't going to appear in the numbers you listed.

i strongly suspect you are taking a lot of bad lines postflop. i recommend you study up. i'm no poker genius either. i wish you the best.

Re: Okay, Ed, I raised.

I don't want to be a jackass but you need to re-evaluate your postflop game if you're really worried about results. 7k hands isn't much of a sample. Ed was dead on in his last post but there's a good chance you're making some simple and correctable postflop errors as well. Hire a coach, pick up a few more books, or just start reading and posting voraciously for a while. Get a friend who plays better than you to sweat your play while you 1-table or 2-table for a while.

And finally, don't worry about the short run so much. 7k hands isn't much of a sample.

http://www.geekpoker.net/images/wheeee.jpg

Re: Okay, Ed, I raised.

That is sick for any number of hands.

Re: Okay, Ed, I raised.

[ QUOTE ]
Okay, Ed, I raised.

Now what?

[/ QUOTE ]

I understand you are frustrated, but your first step should be to understand that this frustration isn't helping you at progress. It's hindering you.

You are running bad. Running bad can go on for very long periods of hands. Given the level of frustration you are showing here, I also suspect that you have a tilting problem while you play. And I further suspect that your postflop game could use some work.

I think you're probably a winning player (on average) right now. I think the two areas you should focus on next are tilting and postflop play.

Re: Okay, Ed, I raised.

Raising preflop 2% more often shouldn't make that big of a difference. Maybe a few tenths of a BB/100. Either way at 1/2 you should be way in the black with either set of stats. You may be running bad, but more likely you play bad postflop.
The best way to fix that is to post hands and read all the good posts in the forums. Go through SS, especially the archives, go through the mid/high archives, and go all the way through and read the most popular posts/posts by noted posters(granted like 75% of these ended up popular due to flaming/trolls) and maybe read the SH forums as well. Also read SSH, ToP, HPFAP, probably have read all these I'm sure but read them again and spend some time thinking away from the table about common postflop situations.

Re: Okay, Ed, I raised.

[ QUOTE ]

W$WSF 30.68
WSD 30.94
W$SD 52.32

[/ QUOTE ]

That would definitely be running bad. Not to say you aren't making postflop mistakes, but they'd have to be huge to even skew the results with numbers like that.

Re: Okay, Ed, I raised.

I dont know much about PT stats, however W$WSF and WSD and W$SD for me are:

33.6 W$WSF
32.8 WTSD
57.7 W$SD

Over 3000 hands sure, but whats considered "running good" or "average" interms of these figures?

Re: Okay, Ed, I raised.

[ QUOTE ]
I dont know much about PT stats, however W$WSF and WSD and W$SD for me are:

33.6 W$WSF
32.8 WTSD
57.7 W$SD

Over 3000 hands sure, but whats considered "running good" or "average" interms of these figures?

[/ QUOTE ]

Your stats aren't off norms enough for 3000 hands to mean much. You could be folding too many winners, running a little bad, or just have a draw-heavy hand distribution.

The key stat for determining running bad is W$WSF, which should generally by 35+ unless you're playing in extremely loose games. Mine tends about 38 for 1/2 through 3/6, though I tend to be on the extreme. Values are generally higher for higher stakes, lower for lower.

WTSD and W$SD are included as a check, because folding too much or too little postflop can skew W$WSF. WTSD should generally be around 35, and W$SD in the 50-53 range. Above 55 coupled with a low WTSD might mean you're folding somewhat too easily, and that could account for the small deficiency in W$WSF. Over 3000 hands, though, it could just mean you're getting more drawing hands than expected, folding when you miss and winning when you hit.

This is limit only. NL generally has lower W$WSF, WTSD, and substantially higher W$SD.

Re: Okay, Ed, I raised.

[ QUOTE ]
I dont know much about PT stats, however W$WSF and WSD and W$SD for me are:

33.6 W$WSF
32.8 WTSD
57.7 W$SD

Over 3000 hands sure, but whats considered "running good" or "average" interms of these figures?

[/ QUOTE ]

It would be almost impossible to win at 5/10 6 max+ with these stats, and I think 3k hands is enough to tell. Im assuming these numbers are from 6m from your location, if not, i dont know what relevence this has.

You are playing far to weak postflop. You are folding winners and hands with proper outs, and not playing marginal hands strong enough. If I saw someone with those stats in my game, I would pick on them all day, isolating with marginal hands and bullying postflop.

Then again, I'm sure 1/2 requires a different approach. I'm just not sure how different.

Re: Okay, Ed, I raised.

Please explain why your aggression on the turn and river has gone down despite more Preflop raising. It's only a slight change but it sounds like you're not betting out enough after a PFR.

Good luck,
Matt

Re: Okay, Ed, I raised.

For my first year or so here I rarely read anything outside of a strategy forum and certainly didn't post anywhere else. I don't do that much any more, not because its not valuable, but after a year of reading and posting about hands just about everyday, I finally got bored of reading other people's hands, and felt fairly comfortable with the decisions I was making at the tables.

Make the micro or SS forum your home. Read hand posts everyday. Contribute to them--this will cause you to think much more intently about hands than if you simply follow along with the discussion, even if in your head you pick out the line you would take.

Post hands yourself. Not just hands where you were unsure what to do, but hands where you think you were right.

Until you do this, I don't think you realize what a valuable exercize it is to get down and dirty with real hands that people encounter.

It may be you know all you need to know, but if you did I don't think we'd be seeing these posts from you.

And don't obsess about the numbers, that's just one step away from being results oriented. Strive to make the correct plays and the numbers will fall into place.

Good luck to you. The 1/2 is definitely beatable and if you keep working on it, you will beat it too and look back on this frustration as just one ultimately positive step on your poker journey.

--Zetack

Re: Okay, Ed, I raised.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I dont know much about PT stats, however W$WSF and WSD and W$SD for me are:

33.6 W$WSF
32.8 WTSD
57.7 W$SD

Over 3000 hands sure, but whats considered "running good" or "average" interms of these figures?

[/ QUOTE ]

It would be almost impossible to win at 5/10 6 max+ with these stats, and I think 3k hands is enough to tell. Im assuming these numbers are from 6m from your location, if not, i dont know what relevence this has.

You are playing far to weak postflop. You are folding winners and hands with proper outs, and not playing marginal hands strong enough. If I saw someone with those stats in my game, I would pick on them all day, isolating with marginal hands and bullying postflop.

Then again, I'm sure 1/2 requires a different approach. I'm just not sure how different.

[/ QUOTE ]

Lol fair enough, Well i've reviewed some 5/10 and watched some videos i tend to agree with majority of decisions but ill check my stats at 10k anyhow.

How can you tell i fold hands with proper outs? I dont see how anyone can assume this?

What are yout 5/10 W$WSF and W$SD and WTSD then?

Cheers Tapirboy also.
POKhER

Re: Okay, Ed, I raised.

if you are having touble winning, i dont think raising more is the answer. its easier to beat the game (if only beat it a little) with a more passive style

Re: Okay, Ed, I raised.

[ QUOTE ]
Please explain why your aggression on the turn and river has gone down despite more Preflop raising. It's only a slight change but it sounds like you're not betting out enough after a PFR.

Good luck,
Matt

[/ QUOTE ]
Easy. I get run over on the flop at an alarming rate, and betting out on the turn and river into four opponents who will never fold doesn't seem to do any good.

Re: Okay, Ed, I raised.

I'll readily admit I have postflop problems, but I'm completely at a loss on how to find or fix them. The biggest problem I've identified is that I win the small pots and lose the big ones, over and over. Unfortunately, I can't find any way in PokerTracker to confirm this, and I don't know what to do about it even if I could.

So I've resorted to trying to cut losses, but this is counter to what Ed says, and I believe, that I shouldn't be folding a 15 or 20 BB pot for one bet when there's a decent chance I'll win it. I could have easily saved enough bets on the river to make up for my losses, but if I folded every time a third flush or straight card, or an ace hits on the river, how much would I have also given up in winnings? I don't find that check box in PT.

I post hands, people agree with the way I played it, or, more often, encourage me to put even more money into a pot against opponents who will never fold.

It could be tilt, but I doubt it. I tilt, but only for a few seconds, and I really don't think it's affecting my play. My table demeanor runs more Phil Ivey than Phil Hellmuth. Frustration, however, is another matter.

I won consistently at .25/.50 and .50/1 over 40K hands, and I've won when taking shots at 2/4, enough to consider abandoning 1/2 and moving up. I hesitate to do this, however, since "If you can't beat 1/2 you can't beat 2/4." I'm also winning enough at the 22s to cover my 1/2 losses. Maybe I'm just not a limit player.

I've read all the books, SSHE cover to cover about five times, and I refer to it daily. I transcribed the starting hands chart to a useable format and used it constantly until I was able to break away from it based on table texture, but I still have it handy. I transcribed all the hands from the "Evaluating the Flop" section into a three-ring binder so I can refer to them on the fly when needed.

Here are some hands from the last session posted. They are fairly typical of the hands I get involved with and can't seem to win.

Is it still MUBS when they always have it?

Hand 1. SB is 67/13, Button is 45/12.

PokerStars 1/2 Hold'em (8 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Flop: Great for me, but I would have continuation bet anyway.

Turn: Did the SB hit his flush or trips? I raise to find out.

River: Maybe it was the button who is slowplaying, or did he just hit his weak ace? If I posted this in Micro Limits I'm sure the advice would be to "reraise the donk!" but maybe the constant hammering has turned me into Lee Jones, so I just call to see his flush as cheaply as possible.

Preflop: Hero is UTG with K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
Hero raises, 4 folds, Button calls, SB calls, 1 fold.

Flop: (7 SB) K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, Button calls, SB calls.

Turn: (5 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB bets, Hero raises, Button calls, SB calls.

River: (11 BB) A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, Button raises, SB calls, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 17 BB

Hand 2. Villain is 42/0.

PokerStars 1/2 Hold'em (10 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Maybe I should have raised preflop to get my PFR up, but it seems to me I want to see the flop cheaply with A2s. If I flop an ace I'm not going to win a kicker war, so I call.

Flop: My first instinct is to open-fold since I know I'm beat by any ace, but that's not the 2+2 way. So I evaluate the hand. I have a backdoor nut flush draw, a backdoor nut straight draw. I already have top pair, but no kicker. If the board pairs, however, then nobody's kicker matters. So I bet to see what shakes out. UTG raises. When donks flop a flush, straight, or trips, they always wait for the turn to raise. Always. But that's MUBS, right? Maybe he was just has an ace, I paired my kicker and he didn't, so I 3-bet.

Turn: All my backdoor draws are gone, but I now have two pair. I'll beat any two pair unless someone has aces and something other than deuces. So I bet again.

River: Has to be a blank. Surely nobody was drawing to a gutshot wheel on this board. UTG bets. Do I call to see the showdown as cheaply as possible, or do I take the 2+2 way and raise? I raise. He calls. Maybe I was right about his ace. He'd 3-bet the straight, right?

Preflop: Hero is CO with A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
UTG calls, 3 folds, MP2 calls, 1 fold, Hero calls, Button calls, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (6 SB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (6 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG checks, MP2 checks, Hero bets, Button calls, SB folds, BB calls, UTG calls, MP2 folds.

Turn: (5 BB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4 players)
BB checks, UTG checks, Hero bets, Button calls, BB folds, UTG raises, Hero 3-bets, Button folds, UTG caps, Hero calls.

River: (14 BB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
UTG bets, Hero raises, UTG calls.

Final Pot: 16.75 BB

Hand 3. Villain is 30/15.

PokerStars 1/2 Hold'em (10 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Flop: I'm behind to AK, AQ, QQ, KK, JJ, and he could have 3-bet any of those PF. If he has one of those, then maybe I should just check/call all the way down. But maybe he has TT, AJ, or with a PFR of 15, lots of other hands. I have TPGK, so I bet.

Turn: He really likes his hand so now we're in check/call to the showdown, right?

River: Now this is an interesting card, so I'll check/raise this donk. Oops. What did the LAG have that he would have checked here? It didn't even put me on tilt. It just amazed me, and sent me back to the books trying to find out what I'm doing wrong.

Preflop: Hero is UTG with Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
Hero raises, 2 folds, MP1 3-bets, 6 folds, Hero calls.

Flop: (7.50 SB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, MP1 raises, Hero calls.

Turn: (5.75 BB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, MP1 bets, Hero calls.

River: (7.75 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, MP1 checks.

Final Pot: 7.75 BB

Hand 4. Villain is 30/15.

PokerStars 1/2 Hold'em (10 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Same donk.

Flop: TPGK, that's it, but I raised PF, so I'm definitely betting out here. They all come along. Great. More money for me.

Turn: MUBS again, but I resist the urge to open-fold, and lead out. Nobody raises. Maybe just this one time nobody has an ace.

River: Okay, I'm beat by a lousy, lowly deuce, but I'm trying very hard to stop giving up every time the river completes a flush or straight, so I bet.

Preflop: Hero is SB with K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
1 fold, UTG+1 calls, 2 folds, MP2 calls, 3 folds, Hero raises, BB calls, UTG+1 calls, MP2 calls.

Flop: (8 SB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (4 players)
Hero bets, BB calls, UTG+1 folds, MP2 calls.

Turn: (5.50 BB) A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero bets, BB folds, MP2 calls.

River: (7.50 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, MP2 raises, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 11.50 BB

Hand 5. Villain is 36/0.

PokerStars 1/2 Hold'em (9 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Flop: The dreaded ace on the flop, with four loose opponents. One of them has it. I know it. You know it. We all know it. But I'm rather obligated to bet out here. The one who has it should raise, and some of the rest of them should fold, right? After all I raised PF, so maybe I have an ace too.

Turn: Nobody folded. They never do. Only three of them can have an ace, and I've actually seen that happen in this situation. More than once. In any event, I'm done sweetening their pot, and decide to just call it down as long as nobody's raising.

River: There's that flush and straight again. At least I'll get the satisfaction of seeing the ragged ace get beat by somebody's miracle card on the river.

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
1 fold, UTG+1 calls, 2 folds, Hero raises, CO calls, 2 folds, BB calls, UTG+1 calls.

Flop: (8.50 SB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (4 players)
BB checks, UTG+1 checks, Hero bets, CO calls, BB calls, UTG+1 calls.

Turn: (6.25 BB) K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (4 players)
BB checks, UTG+1 checks, Hero checks, CO bets, BB calls, UTG+1 calls, Hero calls.

River: (10.25 BB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (4 players)
BB checks, UTG+1 checks, Hero checks, CO bets, BB folds, UTG+1 folds, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 12.25 BB

Hand 6. Villain is 30/5.

PokerStars 1/2 Hold'em (10 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Flop: Only two opponents this time, wow. Maybe nobody has an ace and nobody flopped the flush. Maybe BB is bluffing, on a flush draw, or maybe he has the ace. They always have the ace, right? So I raise.

Turn: He goes into ace-calldown-mode. He had the ace, I raised, so now he's just going to hunker down and see if his ace is bigger than mine. And I have him isolated, that's what raising is all about.

River: I'm beat. I know it, so why waste another bet?

Preflop: Hero is UTG+2 with Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
UTG calls, 1 fold, Hero calls, 6 folds, BB checks.

Flop: (3.50 SB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB bets, UTG folds, Hero raises, BB calls.

Turn: (3.75 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, BB calls.

River: (5.75 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB checks, Hero checks.

Final Pot: 5.75 BB

Hand 7. Villain is 24/8.

PokerStars 1/2 Hold'em (10 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

I definitely have him isolated, but there's an ace on the flop. Can anyone really make a case here against open-folding?

Preflop: Hero is Button with T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
1 fold, UTG+1 raises, 5 folds, Hero 3-bets, 2 folds, UTG+1 calls.

Flop: (7.50 SB) A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
UTG+1 checks, Hero bets, UTG+1 calls.

Turn: (4.75 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
UTG+1 bets, Hero calls.

River: (6.75 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
UTG+1 bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 8.75 BB

Hand 8. Villain is 16.5/4.85.

But sometimes I win.

PokerStars 1/2 Hold'em (8 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is Button with A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. CO posts a blind of $1.
4 folds, CO (poster) checks, Hero raises, 2 folds, CO calls.

Flop: (5.50 SB) K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
CO checks, Hero bets, CO folds.

Final Pot: 3.25 BB

Re: Okay, Ed, I raised.

Just a general comment - preflop stats are important - however they are not the end all of evaluating anyones play - post flop decision making contributes to 80%+ of your winnings or losings - overall I think there is far too much focus on preflop stats when people are questioning thier winning/losing streaks - that said, glad you posted some hands instead of just stats (will take a look through and comment when I have a little more time) - AF

Re: Okay, Ed, I raised.

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 1. SB is 67/13, Button is 45/12.

PokerStars 1/2 Hold'em (8 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Flop: Great for me, but I would have continuation bet anyway.

Turn: Did the SB hit his flush or trips? I raise to find out.

River: Maybe it was the button who is slowplaying, or did he just hit his weak ace? If I posted this in Micro Limits I'm sure the advice would be to "reraise the donk!" but maybe the constant hammering has turned me into Lee Jones, so I just call to see his flush as cheaply as possible.

Preflop: Hero is UTG with K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
Hero raises, 4 folds, Button calls, SB calls, 1 fold.

Flop: (7 SB) K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, Button calls, SB calls.

Turn: (5 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB bets, Hero raises, Button calls, SB calls.

River: (11 BB) A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, Button raises, SB calls, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 17 BB

[/ QUOTE ]

Looks fine. Fold to a turn 3-bet.

Hand 2. Villain is 42/0.

[ QUOTE ]

PokerStars 1/2 Hold'em (10 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Maybe I should have raised preflop to get my PFR up, but it seems to me I want to see the flop cheaply with A2s. If I flop an ace I'm not going to win a kicker war, so I call.

Flop: My first instinct is to open-fold since I know I'm beat by any ace, but that's not the 2+2 way. So I evaluate the hand. I have a backdoor nut flush draw, a backdoor nut straight draw. I already have top pair, but no kicker. If the board pairs, however, then nobody's kicker matters. So I bet to see what shakes out. UTG raises. When donks flop a flush, straight, or trips, they always wait for the turn to raise. Always. But that's MUBS, right? Maybe he was just has an ace, I paired my kicker and he didn't, so I 3-bet.

Turn: All my backdoor draws are gone, but I now have two pair. I'll beat any two pair unless someone has aces and something other than deuces. So I bet again.

River: Has to be a blank. Surely nobody was drawing to a gutshot wheel on this board. UTG bets. Do I call to see the showdown as cheaply as possible, or do I take the 2+2 way and raise? I raise. He calls. Maybe I was right about his ace. He'd 3-bet the straight, right?

Preflop: Hero is CO with A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
UTG calls, 3 folds, MP2 calls, 1 fold, Hero calls, Button calls, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (6 SB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (6 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG checks, MP2 checks, Hero bets, Button calls, SB folds, BB calls, UTG calls, MP2 folds.

Turn: (5 BB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4 players)
BB checks, UTG checks, Hero bets, Button calls, BB folds, UTG raises, Hero 3-bets, Button folds, UTG caps, Hero calls.

River: (14 BB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
UTG bets, Hero raises, UTG calls.

Final Pot: 16.75 BB

[/ QUOTE ]

Preflop is fine. Call the river.

[ QUOTE ]

Hand 3. Villain is 30/15.

PokerStars 1/2 Hold'em (10 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Flop: I'm behind to AK, AQ, QQ, KK, JJ, and he could have 3-bet any of those PF. If he has one of those, then maybe I should just check/call all the way down. But maybe he has TT, AJ, or with a PFR of 15, lots of other hands. I have TPGK, so I bet.

Turn: He really likes his hand so now we're in check/call to the showdown, right?

River: Now this is an interesting card, so I'll check/raise this donk. Oops. What did the LAG have that he would have checked here? It didn't even put me on tilt. It just amazed me, and sent me back to the books trying to find out what I'm doing wrong.

Preflop: Hero is UTG with Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
Hero raises, 2 folds, MP1 3-bets, 6 folds, Hero calls.

Flop: (7.50 SB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, MP1 raises, Hero calls.

Turn: (5.75 BB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, MP1 bets, Hero calls.

River: (7.75 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, MP1 checks.

Final Pot: 7.75 BB

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd check-call the flop and turn, and bet-call the river.

[ QUOTE ]

Hand 4. Villain is 30/15.

PokerStars 1/2 Hold'em (10 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Same donk.

Flop: TPGK, that's it, but I raised PF, so I'm definitely betting out here. They all come along. Great. More money for me.

Turn: MUBS again, but I resist the urge to open-fold, and lead out. Nobody raises. Maybe just this one time nobody has an ace.

River: Okay, I'm beat by a lousy, lowly deuce, but I'm trying very hard to stop giving up every time the river completes a flush or straight, so I bet.

Preflop: Hero is SB with K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
1 fold, UTG+1 calls, 2 folds, MP2 calls, 3 folds, Hero raises, BB calls, UTG+1 calls, MP2 calls.

Flop: (8 SB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (4 players)
Hero bets, BB calls, UTG+1 folds, MP2 calls.

Turn: (5.50 BB) A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero bets, BB folds, MP2 calls.

River: (7.50 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, MP2 raises, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 11.50 BB

[/ QUOTE ]

Calling this river raise seems pretty darned bad to me.

[ QUOTE ]

Hand 5. Villain is 36/0.

PokerStars 1/2 Hold'em (9 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Flop: The dreaded ace on the flop, with four loose opponents. One of them has it. I know it. You know it. We all know it. But I'm rather obligated to bet out here. The one who has it should raise, and some of the rest of them should fold, right? After all I raised PF, so maybe I have an ace too.

Turn: Nobody folded. They never do. Only three of them can have an ace, and I've actually seen that happen in this situation. More than once. In any event, I'm done sweetening their pot, and decide to just call it down as long as nobody's raising.

River: There's that flush and straight again. At least I'll get the satisfaction of seeing the ragged ace get beat by somebody's miracle card on the river.

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
1 fold, UTG+1 calls, 2 folds, Hero raises, CO calls, 2 folds, BB calls, UTG+1 calls.

Flop: (8.50 SB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (4 players)
BB checks, UTG+1 checks, Hero bets, CO calls, BB calls, UTG+1 calls.

Turn: (6.25 BB) K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (4 players)
BB checks, UTG+1 checks, Hero checks, CO bets, BB calls, UTG+1 calls, Hero calls.

River: (10.25 BB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (4 players)
BB checks, UTG+1 checks, Hero checks, CO bets, BB folds, UTG+1 folds, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 12.25 BB

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd fold the river.

[ QUOTE ]

Hand 6. Villain is 30/5.

PokerStars 1/2 Hold'em (10 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Flop: Only two opponents this time, wow. Maybe nobody has an ace and nobody flopped the flush. Maybe BB is bluffing, on a flush draw, or maybe he has the ace. They always have the ace, right? So I raise.

Turn: He goes into ace-calldown-mode. He had the ace, I raised, so now he's just going to hunker down and see if his ace is bigger than mine. And I have him isolated, that's what raising is all about.

River: I'm beat. I know it, so why waste another bet?

Preflop: Hero is UTG+2 with Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
UTG calls, 1 fold, Hero calls, 6 folds, BB checks.

Flop: (3.50 SB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB bets, UTG folds, Hero raises, BB calls.

Turn: (3.75 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, BB calls.

River: (5.75 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB checks, Hero checks.

Final Pot: 5.75 BB

[/ QUOTE ]

Unless villain is incredibly overaggressive I'd usually fold the flop.

[ QUOTE ]

Hand 7. Villain is 24/8.

PokerStars 1/2 Hold'em (10 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

I definitely have him isolated, but there's an ace on the flop. Can anyone really make a case here against open-folding?

Preflop: Hero is Button with T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
1 fold, UTG+1 raises, 5 folds, Hero 3-bets, 2 folds, UTG+1 calls.

Flop: (7.50 SB) A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
UTG+1 checks, Hero bets, UTG+1 calls.

Turn: (4.75 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
UTG+1 bets, Hero calls.

River: (6.75 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
UTG+1 bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 8.75 BB

[/ QUOTE ]

Why'd you call down? Unless villain is LAG, I generally fold the turn. If he's LAG or you suspect him of taking a shot at you calling down is fine.

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 8. Villain is 16.5/4.85.

But sometimes I win.

PokerStars 1/2 Hold'em (8 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is Button with A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. CO posts a blind of $1.
4 folds, CO (poster) checks, Hero raises, 2 folds, CO calls.

Flop: (5.50 SB) K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
CO checks, Hero bets, CO folds.

Final Pot: 3.25 BB

[/ QUOTE ]

Standard.

From my observations you don't seem to do a whole lot of thinking about what your opponents could have or what they likely have when they bet, call, c/r, etc. Raising preflop will help you maximize your earn, but you need to start working on reading hands more. You appear to hate folding any pair, and see a showdown too often when it's too likely you're beat. Your jokes about openfolding suggest a core of weaktightness and a recent history of running bad. But most importantly I really think you need to start thinking about what your action will be before you get raised, before you get bet into, etc., rather than just frustratingly hitting the call button. Start posting more hands -- try for 1 or 2 tough hands every day -- in the microlimits and look for good advice by posters like jaxup and others. There are some good players there who can help you sort out your postflop errors. Your problem doesn't seem to be with Ed (he was right the first time, and is right again), but more with some basic mistakes you're making that shouldn't take too long to correct.

Just MHO.

Rob

Re: Okay, Ed, I raised.

I didn't have time to read all of your examples (cause I'm at work and supposed to be, you know, working...), but I have a few comments for you. I'm not the greatest limit player, so take this advice with a grain of salt.

[ QUOTE ]
I've won when taking shots at 2/4, enough to consider abandoning 1/2 and moving up. I hesitate to do this, however, since "If you can't beat 1/2 you can't beat 2/4."

[/ QUOTE ]

If you can afford to play 2/4, have success at it, and will drop down if you lose to much, don't postpone moving up because "you can't beat 1/2". There's not a huge difference between the 2 limits, but there is a difference, and it's possible your game is better suited for 2/4. I skipped 1/2 (cause I had the bankroll) and never missed it.

[ QUOTE ]

Hand 1. SB is 67/13, Button is 45/12.

PokerStars 1/2 Hold'em (8 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is UTG with K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
Hero raises, 4 folds, Button calls, SB calls, 1 fold.

Flop: (7 SB) K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, Button calls, SB calls.

Turn: (5 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB bets, Hero raises, Button calls, SB calls.

River: (11 BB) A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, Button raises, SB calls, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 17 BB

Flop: Great for me, but I would have continuation bet anyway.

Turn: Did the SB hit his flush or trips? I raise to find out.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you going to fold to a 3 bet? If not, just call. If button doesn't raise, you have a reasonable chance to get to showdown for 1 more bet (the same one you spent raising here). If button raises and small blind calls, TPTK is probably no good.

[ QUOTE ]
River: Maybe it was the button who is slowplaying, or did he just hit his weak ace? If I posted this in Micro Limits I'm sure the advice would be to "reraise the donk!" but maybe the constant hammering has turned me into Lee Jones, so I just call to see his flush as cheaply as possible.

[/ QUOTE ]

The river is tough. Re-raising would be a definite mistake. Overcalling is a mistake against decent opponents. Against these players, you probably need to call the raise.

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 2. Villain is 42/0.

PokerStars 1/2 Hold'em (10 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is CO with A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
UTG calls, 3 folds, MP2 calls, 1 fold, Hero calls, Button calls, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (6 SB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (6 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG checks, MP2 checks, Hero bets, Button calls, SB folds, BB calls, UTG calls, MP2 folds.

Turn: (5 BB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4 players)
BB checks, UTG checks, Hero bets, Button calls, BB folds, UTG raises, Hero 3-bets, Button folds, UTG caps, Hero calls.

River: (14 BB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
UTG bets, Hero raises, UTG calls.

Final Pot: 16.75 BB

Maybe I should have raised preflop to get my PFR up

[/ QUOTE ]

I cringed when I read this. Never do anything to adjust your stats. You do not work on your stats. You work on your game. The stats take care of themselves. Raising weak suited aces here is usually a bad idea.

[ QUOTE ]
If I flop an ace I'm not going to win a kicker war, so I call.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, you are playing for 2 pair or better.

[ QUOTE ]
Flop: My first instinct is to open-fold since I know I'm beat by any ace, but that's not the 2+2 way. So I evaluate the hand. I have a backdoor nut flush draw, a backdoor nut straight draw. I already have top pair, but no kicker. If the board pairs, however, then nobody's kicker matters. So I bet to see what shakes out. UTG raises. When donks flop a flush, straight, or trips, they always wait for the turn to raise. Always. But that's MUBS, right? Maybe he was just has an ace, I paired my kicker and he didn't, so I 3-bet.

Turn: All my backdoor draws are gone, but I now have two pair. I'll beat any two pair unless someone has aces and something other than deuces. So I bet again.

River: Has to be a blank. Surely nobody was drawing to a gutshot wheel on this board. UTG bets. Do I call to see the showdown as cheaply as possible, or do I take the 2+2 way and raise? I raise. He calls. Maybe I was right about his ace. He'd 3-bet the straight, right?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think betting the flop is OK, the raise on the turn isn't bad, but I wouldn't raise the river after UTG capped the turn (if he is 42/0 I assume he's not the most aggressive player in the world postflop).

One last thing (before I get back to work), try not to let thoughts like "what will the posters on the message board think" interfere with your decisions at the table. Make the decisions that seem best to you at the time. Post the hands later, and if someone disagrees with your play, try to understand why so that next time you have a similar decision your own thinking about the situation will be different (rather than just thinking "someone said I should raise in this situation so I'll raise in this situation").

Good luck.

Re: Okay, Ed, I raised.

when i read through your hands i agreed with everything entity said.

the KJ/QT/QQ/TT hands all show, imo, that you make enough postflop mistakes to be a losing player. i do not think it's just variance. you have a formulaic preflop game and you do not play well postflop.

Re: Okay, Ed, I raised.

You need to a coach or at least a buddy to watch you play. Your confidence is in the toilet and you have a loser's mentality.

I had a very similar experience when I 1st started playing 6-max. I was a solid full-ring player at micros but at 6-max it seemed I was playing better than my opponents but somehow I was getting creamed all the time. The suckouts were unimagineably common and painful. After a while it affected my play in ways I didn't realize. I finally got the nerve to ask for real live help and some of the micro regulars who were good or better at 6-max agreed to look at some hand session histories and sweat me while I played for free. I would open a table and my coach would sit at a different table and we would open each other
's tables and watch each other play. Whenever I had a decision to make I would tell my hole cards to my coach on AIM. Since we were both one tabling we had plenty of time to chat about each others hands. No collusion mind you just coaching. This helped me and I believe my coaches (who were not charging me anything and were not the best player s either but just solid proven winners) immeasurably.

For one it helped because they were able to catch what I was doing wrong but it helped to watch how a successful player plays a session. It also helped my subtle form of tilt that occurs when you lose. Having a witness/ cheering section to my session made the losses hurt less. Sort of like having a shoulder to cry on or at least someone to share the anger with really helps.

I highly recommend finding an established winning player to do this for you. Start participating in the micro forum and you'll surely find more than a few willing coaches to sweat you and you might make some friends along the way.

Re: Okay, Ed, I raised.

Thanks for the reply, and I agree with your comments. That's the way I'd prefer to play it. Problem is, while this would have saved a few bets, it wouldn't have won any of these hands, or the hundreds of others like it I get into, and it directly contradicts Ed's "you guys fold too much" and the constant "bet! raise! check/raise!" that I see in hand posts. Against tight players, this either works or it tells me to fold. Loose players, though, play it the same no matter what they have. Do I bet/raise assuming they're always bluffing, or do I check/call/fold assuming they always have it?

Everyone keeps telling me that it's these loose players I want, that's where the money is. So I bought PokerAce and started seeking them out, and my results, already marginal, plummeted.

Re: Okay, Ed, I raised.

Thanks. I'll try to find someone.

Re: Okay, Ed, I raised.

[ QUOTE ]
when i read through your hands i agreed with everything entity said.

the KJ/QT/QQ/TT hands all show, imo, that you make enough postflop mistakes to be a losing player. i do not think it's just variance. you have a formulaic preflop game and you do not play well postflop.

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm certain it's not just variance. I think it's leaks magnified by variance which masks the leaks. It also doesn't help that I get wildly conflicting advice on what the leaks are and how to fix them.

Re: Okay, Ed, I raised.

[ QUOTE ]
Thanks for the reply, and I agree with your comments. That's the way I'd prefer to play it. Problem is, while this would have saved a few bets, it wouldn't have won any of these hands, or the hundreds of others like it I get into, and it directly contradicts Ed's "you guys fold too much" and the constant "bet! raise! check/raise!" that I see in hand posts. Against tight players, this either works or it tells me to fold. Loose players, though, play it the same no matter what they have. Do I bet/raise assuming they're always bluffing, or do I check/call/fold assuming they always have it?

Everyone keeps telling me that it's these loose players I want, that's where the money is. So I bought PokerAce and started seeking them out, and my results, already marginal, plummeted.

[/ QUOTE ]

You really need a coach. You're not getting it but I don't think what you aren't getting can be explained in a single post or two. Each of your hands contained errors in play, and the fact that you say "well, I wouldn't have won anyway" doesn't bode well for the way you approach poker. The game isn't an all or nothing approach; it's about taking marginal edges and pushing them, and over time, contributing them to your winrate. Raising the turn to protect your hand in a big pot won't always help you win, but it will add a fraction of a bet to your winrate each time you do it correctly. Added up, all of these decisions contribute to a winning playing style and result.

Finally, nothing I posted contradicts with Ed's advice from his books, posts, or otherwise. It's very likely the unfortunate case that you're misapplying the advice, but to figure out specifically where or why or how, you may need to either devote yourself to understanding poker, or hire a teacher/coach to help you along with the process. I hear Joe Tall is quite good, though I don't knokw if he's still doing lessons.

It's going to be a long road and it's going to require work. Best of luck to you.

Rob

Re: Okay, Ed, I raised.

[ QUOTE ]
...any of these hands.... directly contradicts.... constant.... either ... or.... same no matter what.... always bluffing....always have it? Everyone....

[/ QUOTE ]

Have you read King Yao's book, Weighing the Odds in Hold'em Poker? It might help to add some shades of gray to your thinking.

I'm glad you made these posts since I have suffered similar frustrations and have similar problems with my play, though perhaps not so extreme.

I agreed with most of Entity's comments on your hands. I thought you made some bad calls. Hand 3 is an exception-- I probably would have played the same as you did. On the flop I'd bet out believing I probably have the best hand. I'd call down after the flop raise and try for the C/R on the river if I thought he was more than 50% likely to bet.

Re: Okay, Ed, I raised.

I just got King Yao's book, but haven't read it yet. I will.

Re: Okay, Ed, I raised.

I tend to like one, maybe two strategy hands to a post so I can both think about it and follow the comments made by other people.

A couple of general things. When you get bet into on the river by a hand that can only have you crushed or is a bluff I don't like raising.

At 1/2 the number of players who will bluff a river is decently large, but the number that will bluff raise a river is very small, you might factor that in.

You can show agression on the PF and flop and still fold the turn. Its texture and opponent dependent of course, but if you put in four small bets on the first two streets, calling down the second two on a losing hand doubles the amount of money you lose in the hand. Agression is nice, but when a hand goes south, it goes south. Pick your spots.

I'm not specifically applying any of that advice to any particular hand above, but it sprung to mind as I read through your hands.

Thinking about what some hypothetical 2 + 2 ers would say during the play of a hand is a good way to get your head so twisted around that you'll have trouble ever figuring out what to do. You may be right about what they'd say, but you might also be wrong. Even if you are right and that's the advice you'd get, the 2+2ers that say it may be full of shyte.

Go with what you think is right, post the hand later and see what the actual advice is. Then evaluate it and if you think its right try to incorporate that thinking into your own thinking over time. If at the tables you think this is a call or fold but hey, 2+2ers on the micro forum would say raise...make the call or fold.

--Zetack