Why did Jesus have to die?
 

Can all u devout catholics and christians please answer this question. It just seems like a senseless death to me. What kind of god would let his only son suffer so that the sins of man could be forgiven? How come God couldnt just open up his heart and say all those who believe will be forgiven? Why did he have do sacrafice someone for this to occur?

Re: Why did Jesus have to die?
 

Do you not see the symbolism in the ultimate sacrifice that Jesus suffered on the cross?

Have you even read the Bible? I suggest you do this first before turning to an internet forum to ask such questions.

Re: Why did Jesus have to die?
 

I went to catholic school and studied religon every year. Why should one man have to suffer so that all of man can be forgiven for their sins. If God is a just and morale go shouldnt faith alone be enough. Jesus dying on the cross is a sensless death. Maybe if his dying closed some cosmic hole to hell it would be more acceptable. But go sacrificiing his only son is just a pile of crap. Jesus would have been better off alive continuing to preach the word of God.-

Re: Why did Jesus have to die?
 

Statements/questions such as

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If God is a just and morale go shouldnt faith alone be enough.

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Jesus dying on the cross is a sensless death. Maybe if his dying closed some cosmic hole to hell it would be more acceptable.

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But go sacrificiing his only son is just a pile of crap

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...make me seriously question the validity of your claim to have "gone to a Catholic school and studied religion every year." Have you graduated yet?

Three other things are also clear: you have not read the Bible, you are not in any sense educated towards the words "Martyr", "Sacrifice", "Resurrection", or "Symbolism", and finally, it does not appear that you even seek an answer, but rather you are looking for some back-patting by your fellow skeptics, atheists, and otherwise rejecting malcontempts.

No short couple of sentences typed in an internet forum can come close to answering a question that theologists, scribes, and philosophers have dedicated their lives to, but if you sincerely care, then I suggest you research the following:

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the blood of martyrs is the seed of the Church

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'I am the good shepherd. I am willing to die for my sheep.'

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'I am willing to give up my life in order that I may receive it back again. No-one takes my life away from me. I give it up of my own free will. I have the right to give it up, and I have the right to take it back. This is what my Father has commanded me to do .'

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'This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many.

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See, my servant will prosper; he will be highly exalted. Many were amazed when they saw him - beaten and bloodied, so disfigured one would scarcely know he was a person. And he will again startle many nations. Kings will stand speechless in his presence. For they will see what they had not previously been told about; they will understand what they had not heard about.

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Re: Why did Jesus have to die?
 

None of the things you mention address his question of why an all powerful and good god requires a painful death on the cross in order to get people into heaven.

Just saying symbolism, martyrdom, 'my blood is the seed of the church', is not a coherent or adequate explanation. Good all powerful beings dont require human sacrafice.

Re: Why did Jesus have to die?
 

God would presumably have known he'd be back a couple of days later anyway - so does that really constitute death?

Re: Why did Jesus have to die?
 

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Just saying DURRRRR symbolism, martyrdom, 'my blood is the seed of the church'

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I missed the part where I typed "DURRRRR"

Hashi, is this the kind of back patting you were looking for? You've come to the right place.

It is a fundamental mistake in understanding the Christian faith, of which you appear to be an outsider, to wonder why "an all powerful loving God" would let "bad things happen to good people" among other things. The "why's" are important questions, but certainly are questions you must ask yourself, and merely discuss amongst peers with the knowledge that there clearly is no definitive answer, nor is it likely one will be revealed in black and white to you any time soon.

Re: Why did Jesus have to die?
 

You still have not answered my question. The passages that you have quoted still do not answer the why. Why did he have to die in order for our sins to be forgiven. Why did he have to die for his sheep. I just dont see the reasoning. u can quote the bible all you want i was just hoping u could explain the reasoning. why would any sane father figure ask his son to needlessly die so that others could be saved. God is almighty all powerfull he could forgive everyones sins on a whim yet he asked his only son to suffer and die. please explain the reasoning behind this.

Re: Why did Jesus have to die?
 

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is not a coherent or adequate explanation.

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And clearly they were not intended as adequate explanations in and of themselves, as I clearly suggested that Hashi research these historic contexts further to continue to investigate his question.

Re: Why did Jesus have to die?
 

It's because "without the shedding of blood, there is no forgiveness". See, it takes blood to be forgiven, because... well... because God is a hemomaniac. He first created vampires in his image, because they like blood too. But they got out of control. And, well, that's why he created the sun to kill them. Catholics appease him by turning the wine into blood at every mass.

Re: Why did Jesus have to die?
 

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God is almighty all powerfull he could forgive everyones sins on a whim

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I suppose God could, on a whim, eliminate every single thing that is wrong in the world, too. He could just snap his fingers and eradicate cancer, AIDS, murder, rape, plague, starvation, death.

Why doesn't he do such things?

In my personal opinion, perhaps it because such utopia only exists in heaven. Worthiness through sacrifice must be proven to enter heaven, and such exemplary worthiness and sacrifice was clearly demonstrated for all to see, hear, and read about by Jesus Christ on the cross, thus answering your question as to why Jesus needed to die in such a horrific way upon the cross.

Of course that is my opinion. You will do yourself better to formulate your own based on your own years of reading, research, and investigation. I'll warn you, faith is probably a prelimary requisite.

Re: Why did Jesus have to die?
 

This is exactly why there is so much violence in the world people shedding blood for their religon. I wonder if the world would be a more peaceful place if there were no religon.

Re: Why did Jesus have to die?
 

why do u need to shed blood. why not do a good deed or shed some tears.

Re: Why did Jesus have to die?
 

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This is exactly why there is so much violence in the world people shedding blood for their religon. I wonder if the world would be a more peaceful place if there were no religon.

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I'm not so convinced that religion is the reason why there is "so much violence in the world". I think there are very clear aspects of human nature that lead to violence. Absent religion, do you honestly feel that there would be nothing to fuel these innate human(animal) drives, actions and reactions?

Nor do I see the direct correlation between religion and universal physical acts such as murder, rape, theft, assault, torture, etc.

Re: Why did Jesus have to die?
 

If the ultimat goal of God was for all good people to live in utopia. Why didnt he just make everyone start of in heaven with no suffering and than eliminate the bad seeds. Why would he go through all the troubles he's been through especially if he is all powerfull. If i had the power to do anything i sure would take the path of least resistance.
I would try to do things right the first time with the least amount of work possible. that is unless i got bored. could it be that God is a bored eogmaniac.

Re: Why did Jesus have to die?
 

Try to answer this more secular question:

Why, upon initiation into the KGB during its prominence, did a man need first to be either stabbed brutally with a knife or have his arm broken by those auditing his worthiness of "membership"?

Re: Why did Jesus have to die?
 

Good point. Its just that so many people have lost their lives due to holy wars. the catholic church has murdered tons of people in the name of god. i guess religon is a good excuse for other countries to invade and conquer.

Re: Why did Jesus have to die?
 

Now, after your initial question has been "answered", you are just frustratingly goading with ridiculous questions based on unclear assumptions in an attempt to get more back patting.

I suggest you give up, as clearly you are not intellectually capable of the philosophical investigation that you snidely demand handed to you.

Re: Why did Jesus have to die?
 

I think that is totally absurd. If you are worthy why do u need to sacrifice so much. yes people in the kgb did this but was it totally necessary. how many good people didnt make it into the kgb because they couldnt pass the initiation process.

Re: Why did Jesus have to die?
 

im not demanding anything. im merely debating an idea. i dont know why u have to get your panties in a bunch. if u were intellectually capable you would welcome this debate.

Re: Why did Jesus have to die?
 

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Just saying symbolism, martyrdom, 'my blood is the seed of the church', is not a coherent or adequate explanation. Good all powerful beings dont require human sacrafice.

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No. The ancients had a real thing about sacrifices. Rather marginalized nowadays, but back in the day it was big big gri-gri magic, you know. Human sacrifice doubly so. Lots of human sacrifices back then to gods these people didn't consider evil.

Same thing with the sacrifice of a god, its not original or even uncommon. Jesus was sacrificed to himself because, well, in the culture of the day it sounded cool.

Re: Why did Jesus have to die?
 

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Jesus was sacrificed to himself because, well, in the culture of the day it sounded cool.

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[img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

You can't be serious. More back patting?

Re: Why did Jesus have to die?
 

Back patting? What do you mean?

Sure I'm serious. In the Jewish culture of that time sacrifices were the most important part of their religion. Why wouldn't the most significant act of a new religion springing from that society be their messiah's individual sacrifice?

Re: Why did Jesus have to die?
 

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i guess religon is a good excuse for other countries to invade and conquer.


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What wars in the 20th century were initiated by religion?

Re: Why did Jesus have to die?
 

its what fueling terroism right now. what about ethnic cleansing if africa.

Re: Why did Jesus have to die?
 

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i guess religon is a good excuse for other countries to invade and conquer.


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What wars in the 20th century were initiated by religion?

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Bosnia, 6 day war, Rwanda, Ivory coast, Sudan, Uganda - not to mention scores of persistent conflict areas like Kashmir, Northern Ireland, Israel, Cyprus, Chechnya. That's just of the top of my head, sure there's loads more I'm not thinking of.

Re: Why did Jesus have to die?
 

okay i guess the debate is over. the purpose of this question was to see if i could get a resonable answer from a person of faith. whenever i ask a how question i always get the same answer. how do u know theres a god?. the answer is always "u just gotta have faith". i dont see how this answer is good enough for people. the very people that give u this answer will question every other unknown fact in there life. riddick did it to me when he questioned that i went to a catholic school. how do people unflinchingly put faith in God yet question every other aspect of there lives. it seems hypocritical. therefore i asksed a why question that couldnt be answered with a simple u gotta have faith quote. the remarks have been limited but interesting.

thanks

Re: Why did Jesus have to die?
 

Good job, you've successfully made atheism look stupider to Christians. Don't post unless you at least have the common intellectual integrity not to use "u."

Re: Why did Jesus have to die?
 

I'm no devout catholic but I'll give it a whirl.

The body died but the thing from which Jesus acted from, which would be his pure consciousness, the knowledge of what it is like to act from that source, got passed down, or was what got attempted to get passed down, through the religion of Christianity. This is like the same thing as Dharma transmission in Buddhism, but some Christians think about it in a weird way. I think they think, 'If I act like Jesus, I'll be good and be like Jesus which is good enough. That's missing the point that they already are Jesus, or they are already the thing from which Jesus acted from, his pure consciousness his the same as our pure consciousness. It's just that we don't realize it cause we have a lot of attachments to conceptual ideas that cloud our ability to see ourselves as our true selves, which is just this basic awareness that is innate in all of us, the thing that is reading this page right now, that's God. Hashi is God ha ha you rule.

Re: Why did Jesus have to die?
 

it should be about the ideas and debate why do uuuu have to get so nit picky. im not trying to re write the theory of relativity.

Re: Why did Jesus have to die?
 

christians will always look down on athiest because they are blinded by their faith. So does it really matter if my grammer is terrible.

Re: Why did Jesus have to die?
 

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christians will always look down on athiest because they are blinded by their faith. So does it really matter if my grammer is terrible.

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Hiya Hashi92,


You are right, they are blinded, and it doesn't matter regarding ur grammar. It is just that some people are so used to tell others what to do and how to live their lives that they are not even conscious of it. U could say that, al least, in that respect, but probabbly with regards others too, they are of limited consciousness and little capable of empathy.

One of the interesting phenomena you can observe on this forum where the balance of believers to non-believers is not so usually highly weigthed against atheists, is that believers seem to be very uncomfortable with this fact and with the fact that thier fundamentals could be questionned at all. It may very well indicate that the herd mentality isrequired as propicious ground for the growth of religion. I have often wondered what would give cause to so many abrogating reason and choosing unreason. Must be some form of cognitive dissonance effect. Not that this is a bad thing, as you will see from the many postings, most of them are psychopaths which need religion to keep their propensities and proclivities in check. What I mean is that most express the view that religion is what keeps the world moral. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] That there would only be rape, murder and other mayhem if they were not kept in check by their religion.

Now, to answer your original question, the only thing I can think of, is that since they have not got the moral sense found in non-believers, that, in some way, they have projected all those unconscious evils in themselves to a god which, thus ,become the epitome of all the immoral (ie ask sacrifices, kill his son, inflict suffering, etc...) albeit as a projection.

In Jungian terms it is a pure projection of the shadow. Unusually, that projection is somehow on an archetype, thus displacing/interfering with the archetype usual functionning.

Re: Why did Jesus have to die?
 

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Can all u devout catholics and christians please answer this question. It just seems like a senseless death to me. What kind of god would let his only son suffer so that the sins of man could be forgiven? How come God couldnt just open up his heart and say all those who believe will be forgiven? Why did he have do sacrafice someone for this to occur?

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Wow, I'm more than a little surprised that no one actually made an effort to answer your honest question. This is at the core of what it means to be a Christian.

Sin does not come without penalty. We all sin and our sin will be punished. The bible says that the wages of sin is death. Old Testament priests would take an animal and lay the sins of the people on the animal and the sacrifice would be effective to cover their sins. The penalty of death was carried out. The sacrifice was imperfect and so the priest would repeat the sacrifice every year.

Hebrews 10:4 says that it was impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins. Therefore Jesus Christ, the Son of God came into the world to bear our sins. The punishment we deserve is inflicted on the perfect spotless Lamb of God. Our faith in this sacrifice of Christ is the basis of God's forgiveness.

If I steal $10,000 from someone and am brought before a judge, his job is to render justice. He cannot just release me and say "not guilty". Justice is not done. Someone is still out $10,000. Similarly, God cannot simply pardon sin without payment of the penalty. It was an act of supreme love for God to offer his son to save those who believe in him. It was an act of supreme justice to sacrifice the perfectly sinless, willing son of God.

When we put our trust in the faithfulness of God to save those who believe in Jesus Christ who has overcome death, God reckons to our account the righteousness of Christ. So, not only are we now forgiven with a clean slate, we bear the righteousness of his Son, Jesus. We stand before a righteous, loving and holy God without spot or wrinkle. He sees us as he sees his Son and says "well done."

Hope this helps.

-Zapp

Re: Why did Jesus have to die?
 

Hiya Zapp,

Doesn't help much with my sense of justice. I mean, we all are still paying for Adam & Eve transgression. Ah well. It is all in how we define justice I guess.


MidGe

Re: Why did Jesus have to die?
 

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Hebrews 10:4 says that it was impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins. Therefore Jesus Christ, the Son of God came into the world to bear our sins.

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You forgot to mention the vampires. That's very important, as it shows why God first made the light when he re-created the world -- that was to kill the vampires.

Re: Why did Jesus have to die?
 

"Why did Jesus have to die?"

He didn't. He just did it to make us realize the horror of sin.

Re: Why did Jesus have to die?
 

KipBond, did Christians beat you up when you were a kid? Seriously, don't hold it against all of us just because you were routinely beaten up as a kid.

Re: Why did Jesus have to die?
 

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Riddick, did Atheists beat you up when you were a kid? Seriously, don't hold it against all of us just because you were routinely beaten up as a kid.

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Re: Why did Jesus have to die?
 

but why does God ask for such sacrifices. it really is unecessary. the god of christians and catholics seems to be a very vindictive god. he demands extreme sacrifices even from his most devout followers. when people do not do his will he rains down fire onto them (sodom)or floods the earth. yet at the same time he demands us to be morale and law abiding. at times he can be very contradicting. sometimes he says and eye for and eye than he says to turn the other cheek or whoever has not sinned may cast the first stone. why cant this god demand people to be just and morale. why does he need the extreme sacrifice of anybody.

in your $10000 example people can make up for their sins by going to church and confessing. doing a zillion hail mary's and our fathers. why cant that be enough. its the same as someone admitting they stole $10000 dollars and paying restitution in the form of prison time or monetary reimbursment. you say god cannot pardon sin without payment. why is this so. when someone does you wrong you have to choices to forgive or not to forgive. if someone doesnt accept that they did you wrong you probally wont forgive them. if they open up their heart and ask for forgiveness shouldnt that be all that is needed.

Re: Why did Jesus have to die?
 

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Similarly, God cannot simply pardon sin without payment of the penalty.

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Yes, he can. God is all-powerful. Are you telling me that, even if he willed it, he couldn't remove the sin from a person and let them into heaven?

The notion of justice you propose is absurd. If I steal ten grand and get punished, should my great-great-great-great-great-great-grandchild also be punished for this deed?