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- Mid- and High-Stakes Hold'em (http://archives2.twoplustwo.com/forumdisplay.php?f=16)

- - Expectation (http://archives2.twoplustwo.com/showthread.php?t=203655)

Let’s say you’re at 20/40 table and playing with 8 equally bad players. You make $40/hr at this game.

4 seats open up at the 40/80 table. 4 of the 20/40 players from your table move over and you follow. In the other 4 seats at the 40/80 table there are players who play just as well as you.

Would you make the same, more, or less at the 40/80 table per hour?

What happens to the 4 seats in the 20/40 game? Are they filled (presumably by more bad players) or do you get to play 5-handed?

the answer is: depends.

the problem with this question is that you have quantified each player's losses per hour in the 20/40 setting, but you cannot carry that number to the 40/80 tables as you have added a new variable to the mix. the bad players may lose more or less per hour when confronted with a table conformed of more solid players and less poor players. you cannot determine their winrates based on the information youve provided us.

if you make $40/hr, then you're opponents make that much in mistakes per hour against you. since they are equally bad, it is uniformly distrubuted amongst them. also, that is not to say that they EQUALLY contribute individually to your expectation as you are not in a pot with them all the time as they are in a pot with each other. but in the long run their mistakes are your gains...

now add other good players and now you HAVE to earn less from those other players WHEN you're in a pot all together. SOMETIMES those good players will get you out of a pot to play with those bad players. further, there are just fewer bad players so the cards are distrubited evenly among all 10 players...the good players will get good cards and play them WELl against you whereas you had bad players playing good cards against you before...

i think you'll earn less...but not by all that much in terms of relative BB/hr...but clearly more in terms of absolute $ figures...

-Barron

The thing is, you're going to be in pots with the bad players alot more than you're going to be in pots with the good players, assuming that one characteristic of the bad players is that they are too loose (a fair assumption). So while in the 20 game you were playing in 100% of the pots with bad players, it would probably drop to about 60-70% in the 40 game, as opposed to 50%, which makes up for the good players, against whom you have a long run expectation of 0 against.

where's your seat in the 40/80?

i think that you are trying to remedy the problem by saying that the players will play the same in the 40/80 game as they would in the 20/40 game, and therefore when a bad player enters a pot, he splits his negative expectation with the other good players in the pot equally. while that is the case, his negative expectation between entering the pot of a 20/40 game and a pot of a 40/80 game could be significantly different, because you dont know how he will change his game plan. he might tighten up a bit preflop with the increased aggression and decreased "pot odds" by the other loose players playing in every pot with him. he might raise more preflop, he might defend his blinds less, he might checkraise more often, etc etc. without even the littlest player traits defined, you cannot quantify precisely what his ev is between games.

in most situations, it would be logical to assume that your BB/100 would decrease when moving up in limits with better players, but that is not always the case is all that i am saying.

You would definately make more, there's no question about it. (Assuming nuetral seating.)