Curtains Hand - Early Position Push/No Push
 

I am working on my pushes UTG but I think this is one I make easily. Converter doesnt like me.

Seat 10 is the button
Total number of players : 7
Seat 2: ISIAH33 ( $2440 )
Seat 3: AAwjrAA ( $905 )
Seat 6: ILuvCurtains ( $765 )
Seat 7: TWG8186 ( $480 )
Seat 8: billybutchc ( $1780 )
Seat 9: Kapiti ( $2445 )
Seat 10: Daliman ( $1185 )
Trny:18348382 Level:6
Blinds(100/200)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to ILuvCurtains [ Jd 7c ]
ILuvCurtains folds.

Re: Curtains Hand - Early Position Push/No Push
 

This is a trivial fold with 6 people to act behind you.

Re: Curtains Hand - Early Position Push/No Push
 

I don't even think about pushing this.

Re: Curtains Hand - Early Position Push/No Push
 

If you factor in the blinds taking 300 out of your 765 then I really think this is a push.

Re: Curtains Hand - Early Position Push/No Push
 

You really think you have FE here? I don't think you have much, and your pushing with a hand that's 50/50 against a random hand.

Re: Curtains Hand - Early Position Push/No Push
 

BB calls with any 2 its a push

Re: Curtains Hand - Early Position Push/No Push
 

Pushing is not as terrible as everyone makes it out to be, as we do have some FE for sure. I still prefer folding though.

Re: Curtains Hand - Early Position Push/No Push
 

This is like a top 20% push. J7o isn't even close. Hell A7o is a fold here too IMO.

Re: Curtains Hand - Early Position Push/No Push
 

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BB calls with any 2 its a push

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So let me get this straight.

I'm pushing a hand. w/ 6 players behind. With admittedly very little fold equity. Hoping that the BB is ONLY(any other range puts us at significant dog) calling with any two, because then it will be a coin flip?

Re: Curtains Hand - Early Position Push/No Push
 

Am i not using the equity modeling part of power tools right? These blinds are going to kill us and I think most people are missing that. I can see folding because there are 7 people, 5 handed this becomes super easy.

Re: Curtains Hand - Early Position Push/No Push
 

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This is like a top 20% push. J7o isn't even close. Hell A7o is a fold here too IMO.

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can you please back this up with sngpt or some type of math. i highly doubt this is correct.

Re: Curtains Hand - Early Position Push/No Push
 

I would rather shove J7 than A7 here.

edit: Well, maybe not. I don't know how common it is for people to call with A3 etc up there.

Re: Curtains Hand - Early Position Push/No Push
 

You have more FE than you think here. If you fold now and give up the blinds you have 2BB, 1.5 BB if the blinds go up? THAT's no FE.

Re: Curtains Hand - Early Position Push/No Push
 

Yes I agree that people are wrong to dismiss this out of hand. I actually suspect it's very close. Im unsure of how to calculate whats best though as there are a lot of weird factors like a super short stack and so on.

Re: Curtains Hand - Early Position Push/No Push
 

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Am i not using the equity modeling part of power tools right? These blinds are going to kill us and I think most people are missing that. I can see folding because there are 7 people, 5 handed this becomes super easy.

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Yeah the blinds are killing us it's a shame we never get dealt a hand or get a walk in the blinds, otherwise it wouldn't be such doomsday scenario!

Re: Curtains Hand - Early Position Push/No Push
 

k i just did it in sngpt. if you have A7o and they only call with better hands (22+, A7o) this is an easy push(+.4), and thats not factoring the blinds killing you. if they call with anything else its more +EV

Re: Curtains Hand - Early Position Push/No Push
 

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k i just did it in sngpt. if you have A7o and they only call with better hands (22+, A7o) this is an easy push(+.4), and thats not factoring the blinds killing you. if they call with anything else its more +EV

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What about J7o?

Re: Curtains Hand - Early Position Push/No Push
 

well i was responding to shillx. A7o has enough value alone to be a push but J7o depends on peoples calling ranges. so its hard to say but its definitely close

Re: Curtains Hand - Early Position Push/No Push
 

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Am i not using the equity modeling part of power tools right? These blinds are going to kill us and I think most people are missing that. I can see folding because there are 7 people, 5 handed this becomes super easy.

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Yeah the blinds are killing us it's a shame we never get dealt a hand or get a walk in the blinds, otherwise it wouldn't be such doomsday scenario!

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Thats a good point, although I doubt you'll get a walk in the blinds here.

Re: Curtains Hand - Early Position Push/No Push
 

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k i just did it in sngpt. if you have A7o and they only call with better hands (22+, A7o) this is an easy push(+.4), and thats not factoring the blinds killing you. if they call with anything else its more +EV

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Hey. If they call with 22+/A7+, a push is worth just + .1%. You have to include suited hands in the calling range as well. It is worth + .2% if you push with 76s and they have the same calling range.

The key is that you have to push the right types of hands. Suited cards go way up in value. Connected cards go way up in value. Push hands that play well against suspected calling ranges. A7o doesn't play very well against tighter ranges though it is decent. Something like A9o would be a clear push in the hand presented. J7o plays horribly against tighter ranges and can be thrown away without blinking. I would much rather push 32s then J7o.

And yes the math in this spot has been done over and over again. It is easiest part of SNG theory to grasp. A lot of pushes are non-exploitable with 7 people still in play.

Re: Curtains Hand - Early Position Push/No Push
 

Are you factoring in the blinds hitting you?

Re: Curtains Hand - Early Position Push/No Push
 

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Am i not using the equity modeling part of power tools right? These blinds are going to kill us and I think most people are missing that. I can see folding because there are 7 people, 5 handed this becomes super easy.

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Yeah the blinds are killing us it's a shame we never get dealt a hand or get a walk in the blinds, otherwise it wouldn't be such doomsday scenario!

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Thats a good point, although I doubt you'll get a walk in the blinds here.

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Yeah but the third scenario is that you win the pot when you make a hand after an unraised flop or you're checked to if the the SB opencompletes. So there's some good things that can happen in the blinds, too many people seem to think the sky is falling when they're nearly in the blinds.

Re: Curtains Hand - Early Position Push/No Push
 

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Are you factoring in the blinds hitting you?

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Are you thinking about the fact that your more likely than not going to have a better hand in the BB next hand?

Re: Curtains Hand - Early Position Push/No Push
 

I dont know how to factor that in with math so no

Re: Curtains Hand - Early Position Push/No Push
 

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k i just did it in sngpt. if you have A7o and they only call with better hands (22+, A7o) this is an easy push(+.4), and thats not factoring the blinds killing you. if they call with anything else its more +EV

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Hey. If they call with 22+/A7+, a push is worth just + .1%. You have to include suited hands in the calling range as well. It is worth + .2% if you push with 76s and they have the same calling range.

The key is that you have to push the right types of hands. Suited cards go way up in value. Connected cards go way up in value. Push hands that play well against suspected calling ranges. A7o doesn't play very well against tighter ranges though it is decent. Something like A9o would be a clear push in the hand presented. J7o plays horribly against tighter ranges and can be thrown away without blinking. I would much rather push 32s then J7o.

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yea my bad. +.4 was something else. but the point is its still +EV. you make it sound like .1% is not enough considering we are about 75% likely to lose 1/4 our stack next hand. (with equity modeling of 75% this is +1.5% EV btw)

Re: Curtains Hand - Early Position Push/No Push
 

I push this, the fact that BB is pretty short tips this over for me.

Re: Curtains Hand - Early Position Push/No Push
 

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Pushing is not as terrible as everyone makes it out to be, as we do have some FE for sure. I still prefer folding though.

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Indeed. The ranges have to be in the region of 9%-12%. It's far from a terrible push, but quite a thin one. I might make it on some tables. The short stack is less of a worry as he's acting right after us, so in theory at least, should be less likely to call.

Of course the problem is the BB should call a lot, he only needs to be 36% favourite against our range. This for me probably tips it just to a fold.

Re: Curtains Hand - Early Position Push/No Push
 

I agree pushing isn't terrible here. My move would probally be to fold and call a push in the bb next hand.

If I push here I will be called by a hand that beats mine. If I call someone from my bb, I could easily find myself calling an any 2 push from a desperate shortstack or loose large stack, which will be ok considering my odds.

Maybe it's also better for image. You are kind of expected to call from your bb, but pushing with J7 UTG shows you are capable of pushing trash.

I'm not sure you have much FE at all. Shortie in the bb, another shortie who will have an itchy trigger finger, and a couple of large stacks who might challenge a UTG push from a shortstack.

There's also always the chance that your BB is folded to you.

No matter what you do it's a $hitty situation.

Re: Curtains Hand - Early Position Push/No Push
 

Incidentally I push J7s here without even thinking about it. Unless the BB really knows what he's doing and is going to call me with a stupid amount. The ranges are 12-17%.

Re: Curtains Hand - Early Position Push/No Push
 

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I would rather shove J7 than A7 here.

edit: Well, maybe not. I don't know how common it is for people to call with A3 etc up there.

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A7o push is unexploitable. J7o is certainly not.

Re: Curtains Hand - Early Position Push/No Push
 

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I agree pushing isn't terrible here. My move would probally be to fold and call a push in the bb next hand.

If I push here I will be called by a hand that beats mine. If I call someone from my bb, I could easily find myself calling an any 2 push from a desperate shortstack or loose large stack, which will be ok considering my odds.

Maybe it's also better for image. You are kind of expected to call from your bb, but pushing with J7 UTG shows you are capable of pushing trash.

I'm not sure you have much FE at all. Shortie in the bb, another shortie who will have an itchy trigger finger, and a couple of large stacks who might challenge a UTG push from a shortstack.

There's also always the chance that your BB is folded to you.

No matter what you do it's a $hitty situation.

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J7 is an average hand. Next hand you may have a worse one. You will be forced to call bets from hands that will on average be stronger than the hand you have. Saying the short stack will be pushing worse hands than normal is irrelevent as you have no choice other than to call regardless of your hand. They have a choice so will weed out the very worst hands that they will move with. Their range will always be better than yours.
By pushing now you have some FE, not much, but 100% more than you have leaving it until the next hand.
Push

Re: Curtains Hand - Early Position Push/No Push
 

curtains,

Do you push this if it's soooted?

Yugoslav
Who is serious...

Re: Curtains Hand - Early Position Push/No Push
 

[ QUOTE ]
curtains,

Do you push this if it's soooted?

Yugoslav
Who is serious...

[/ QUOTE ]

definitely

Re: Curtains Hand - Early Position Push/No Push
 

Without seeing the entire HH I can't be certain, but it seems to me that a mistake was likely made in a previous hand. A hand that should have been pushed that wasn't. Being UTG with less than 4 BBs in a never a situation you want to end up in. Folding sucks. Pushing sucks. I doubt it makes much difference. I'd love to see the last 8 or 9 hands of this tourny, see how curtains got into this predictament and get his comments. Can we do that?

moses

Re: Curtains Hand - Early Position Push/No Push
 

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Without seeing the entire HH I can't be certain, but it seems to me that a mistake was likely made in a previous hand. A hand that should have been pushed that wasn't. Being UTG with less than 4 BBs in a never a situation you want to end up in. Folding sucks. Pushing sucks. I doubt it makes much difference. I'd love to see the last 8 or 9 hands of this tourny, see how curtains got into this predictament and get his comments. Can we do that?

moses

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Kill me now. Like youve never had a situation where you just happen to have only 3.5x the BB. Nope, obviously I must have made mistakes earlier. I hate this argument when its used with low stakes player, please God don't use it on my games.

Re: Curtains Hand - Early Position Push/No Push
 

oh... i don't know.... every made a +EV call that didn't work out so well and end up with a small stack?

seriously dude.

Re: Curtains Hand - Early Position Push/No Push
 

btw I looked at the previous hand and found one probably small mistake, but its basically irrelevant. Everything else was just kind of normal. Quite honestly I get into a situation with under 5x the BB very often as does anyone else who plays well. It's not a death sentence, sometimes you just have to hope to get a good hand, as you never have a chance to steal or your hands are too weak and your steal equity is too small.

Re: Curtains Hand - Early Position Push/No Push
 

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This is like a top 20% push. J7o isn't even close. Hell A7o is a fold here too IMO.

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Folding A7o here would be horrible.

Re: Curtains Hand - Early Position Push/No Push
 

I was having a bad day today, even A7o isn't unexploitable. But they need to call above 27% to make it bad, which is just not happening.

Re: Curtains Hand - Early Position Push/No Push
 

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I was having a bad day today, even A7o isn't unexploitable. But they need to call above 27% to make it bad, which is just not happening.

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Who cares if it's exploitable or not, anyway. Even if it's clearly -$EV, I'm still pushing A7o here.