Position, Is it REALLY that important in some games.
 

This post is not about games with talented people. I am talking about party like .50/1 games where you are probably the only one that is position aware.

Keeping in mind that we have to question our teachers to learn, I think position is way overrated in alot of these games. I am having trouble when I have a good starting hand for late position and it is limped to me. If I limp or bet out no one follows the "script", in other words the players behind me don't fold to my "obvious show of strength", they are emboldened by it and get all worked up into a calling frenzy, sometimes they even start reraising, which sometimes goes on for the entire hand. These guys just have a real hard time folding a hand that they become the least bit attached to, they have to have what they consider a real good reason to fold and someone with position on them showing strength does not matter compared to the possibility that they may hit that third duce on the river.

I have found that sometimes you can use position on these guys though. Betting out big from early position with any two sometimes gets you the blinds. I think they never have time to fall in love with thier hand so it is easy to give it up to a show of strength. You can't seem to make money this way but it sometimes works.

Why does position not work for me:

1. Position is an over rated concept.
2. Position is not over rated but I have over valued it in my mind.
3. The value of position is a function of the skill of your opponents.
4. Calling stations negate the value of position.
5. Position concepts are over my head and I will never understand them.
6. I am missapplying the concept of position and need to do some thought and study on the subject.
7. Other

I could use some direction from others that have overcome this. I don't expect position to win big pots for me every time and understand that it is but a tool that will assist you in increasing your $$$$ win.

Re: Position, Is it REALLY that important in some games.
 

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the players behind me don't fold to my "obvious show of strength", ...showing strength does not matter compared to the possibility that they may hit that third duce on the river.

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Do you understand that you want players to call to the river in multiway pots with unimproved low pairs? My idea of success is winning money. It's not winning pots. It's not geting my opponents to fear me enough that they stop trying to give me their money.

Until we agree on this, I don't think we can have a meaningful discussion of position, but position still makes a huge difference in soft games. Position lets you get paid off much more when your hand is good. Position lets you get away cheaply when passive players wake up in front of you.

Re: Position, Is it REALLY that important in some games.
 

Position matters even if your opponents don't use it. If you have a very strong made hand, position can help you get more out of it by virtue of everyone acting in front of you. If you have a weak draw, position can help you take free cards, or get out after there's a bet and raise in front of you. If you're the BB and the SB bets into you, you're forced to guess what will happen.

Re: Position, Is it REALLY that important in some games.
 

Thank you for the reply Pzhon. Your reply makes sense however there are a few issues that I just can not seem to understand. I hope you can help me clear them up.

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Do you understand that you want players to call to the river in multiway pots with unimproved low pairs?

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Yes this is my understanding as well. I love it when someone stays in with 22 and I have a higher pair of a draw. I want to see a couple of people in the pot with 22, 33, 44 etc. What I am having problems with is that if we have 3 opponents with each having 22, 33, 44 and I have KK then they have more outs to improve than I do. Any 2, 3, or 4 trips up and beats us if we do not improve.
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My idea of success is winning money. It's not winning pots.

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Standard, I think that this is one of the first things that Miller teaches us.
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It's not geting my opponents to fear me enough that they stop trying to give me their money.

[/ QUOTE ] Once again I must agree with you. If we are to win others must call and even raise. If they fold they do not loose and we do not win the most we can. I am not looking for fear from my opponents, I do want them to question why I raise a pot. If they are unthinking calling stations then actions that I take will not affect them. A simi bluff will be only another chance for them to call not fold. Sure I take a lot of hands to the turn and I am happy that I have callers still with me. Sometimes I hate the river, I want them to fold, and folding may be the only way I am going to win a hand that I was way ahead in.
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Until we agree on this, I don't think we can have a meaningful discussion of position, but position still makes a huge difference in soft games.

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Again we do not disagree. Position is important and valuable. The problem is not that I do not believe the position thingie, the problem is that I do not seem to be able to apply it properly in order to maximize my win.

I know this is sort of long but I have tried to make it brief.

Re: Position, Is it REALLY that important in some games.
 

Maybe you are not aware of it during playing, but when you have position you gather more information before conducting your action. Information is valuable in poker, since it improves the quality of your decisions (it probably already does for you to).

Re: Position, Is it REALLY that important in some games.
 

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What I am having problems with is that if we have 3 opponents with each having 22, 33, 44 and I have KK then they have more outs to improve than I do. Any 2, 3, or 4 trips up and beats us if we do not improve.

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This is dumb rationale.

Re: Position, Is it REALLY that important in some games.
 

Regarding your first point, that they have more outs than you. There are 3 of them. Of course they have. Secondly, if no-one improves, which is likely, you still win. So, if your raise with KK is called by 22, 33 and 44 pre-flop, quick maths tells me you win the pot about 50% of the time. I know you want to win all the time but, with them calling to the river you're getting 3/1 about an even money bet. This is what you are looking for.
I know it's frustrating when idiots suck out on you a few times in a row, but you must remember, if they weren't making these bad plays, you couldn't beat this game. You will get their cash in the long run, even if you don't get it in this session, Good Luck, Mahogany17

Re: Position, Is it REALLY that important in some games.
 

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This is dumb rationale.

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All of it, some of it? I am sure it was not your intent to answer in such a subjective manner. I am listening if you care to explain further.

Re: Position, Is it REALLY that important in some games.
 

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What I am having problems with is that if we have 3 opponents with each having 22, 33, 44 and I have KK then they have more outs to improve than I do. Any 2, 3, or 4 trips up and beats us if we do not improve.

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Sure, but if you have 22, 33, and 44 in against your KK, you're getting 3:1 on your money (not even considering dead money). Even if they, combined, have a 6 out draw to beat you, they are collectively a coinflip to beat you (overcards vs. a lower PP is a 6 out draw as well, for reference sake). Your odds are massively +EV. The amount of pots you win isn't the important thing, it's the amount of money.

Re: Position, Is it REALLY that important in some games.
 

There are a lot of +EV situations in position regardless of your cards. There are very few of these out of position.

Re: Position, Is it REALLY that important in some games.
 

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4. Calling stations negate the value of position.


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quite the opposite. the value of position is magnified when your [out of position] opponent is a calling station.
in a heads up pot for example:
when you are in position against a calling station, you know what he has done and what he will most likely do. you can bet with the best of it and get paid off, or you can check behind with drawing hands and get free cards. or you can check behind on the turn or river when you think he has drawn out on you. when you have position in holdem, omaha, or stud, your calling station opponent will often give you very valuable free cards on key later streets. on these streets the edge that your hand has over his is increased [because there are less cards/streets to come] and the betting limits are increased, so you can save more when youre behind, and win more when youre ahead.
compare this when youre against a tricky/aggressive player [the opposite of the calliin' station] he checks, you bet in position, and... you dont know what hes going to do, he might checkraise with a draw, or a better hand. he might even just call with a hand that youre drawing dead to.
in short, position kiks azzz.

Re: Position, Is it REALLY that important in some games.
 

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What I am having problems with is that if we have 3 opponents with each having 22, 33, 44 and I have KK then they have more outs to improve than I do. Any 2, 3, or 4 trips up and beats us if we do not improve.

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AA is improved by fewer cards than 32o. AA is a much better hand. Don't count outs for the hand that is ahead.

KK wins 55.6% hot-and-cold against 44, 33, and 22, which means every $1 put in preflop returns $2.23, for a $1.23 profit. If you were only up against 44 and 33, every dollar would return $2.03. These are obviously better than being heads up, where every dollar would return less than $2; against 44 the actual value is $1.61. So, even if you knew your opponents had distinct low pocket pairs, you would generally 3 callers instead of 2, and 2 callers instead of 1. You are happier to see each additional call.

This assumes the blinds and the implied odds are negligible and they don't bluff you off your hand when an ace hits.

What about on later streets? Let us ignore the case that someone has a set already or has more than 2 outs. Suppose the players with 44, 33, and 22 put in 3 small bets preflop and one small bet on the flop. You are out of position and bet out. If someone rivers a set, you will pay off 2 bets on the river since you don't notice they never bluff. If no one rivers a set, you'll be called but not overcalled. How many callers do you want in this situation?

The pot contains 8 big bets. If you take down the pot, that is worth 8 BB.

If you get 1 caller, you gain 10 BB 38/40 of the time, and lose 3 BB 2/40. That is worth 9.35 BB.

If you get 2 callers, you gain 11 BB 36/40 of the time, and lose 3 BB 4/40. That is worth 9.60 BB.

If you get 3 callers, you gain 12 BB 34/40 of the time, and lose 3 BB 6/40. That is worth 9.75 BB.

If someone wanted to hop in with an unimproved 55 at that point without matching the bets on earlier streets, you should let them (9.80 BB).

There is some schooling effect. You aren't gaining as much as they are losing by making the overcall, since the overcall helps the players who already called. However, this effect is not large enough that you would be better off if they folded. If you like money, you want as many of them to call as possible.

Re: Position, Is it REALLY that important in some games.
 

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Maybe you are not aware of it during playing, but when you have position you gather more information before conducting your action. Information is valuable in poker, since it improves the quality of your decisions (it probably already does for you to).

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True, information is one of the things u gain from possition. However... for the information to be worth anything, your opponents must understand what their hand is worth themself. And THIS is very often not the case for many players at 0.5/1. But the little information u get is better than none...

Re: Position, Is it REALLY that important in some games.
 

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Yes this is my understanding as well. I love it when someone stays in with 22 and I have a higher pair of a draw. I want to see a couple of people in the pot with 22, 33, 44 etc. What I am having problems with is that if we have 3 opponents with each having 22, 33, 44 and I have KK then they have more outs to improve than I do. Any 2, 3, or 4 trips up and beats us if we do not improve.

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You're missing something. When you have KK and are up against three opponents holding 22, 33, and 44, they collectively have nine outs to beat you, AND YOU HAVE ALL THE REST OF THE CARDS IN THE DECK. Before the flop you've got 56% of the equity in a four-way pot. Your overlay is huge.