Interesting Turn Decision With JJ Overpair
 

SB is tight and a bit passive pre-flop, but more aggresive post-flop at 14.3/5.91/2.07 after 575 hands.

Party Poker 1.00/2.00 Hold'em <font color="#0000FF">(9 handed)</font> link

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, SB calls, BB calls.

Flop: (6.00 SB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, SB calls, BB folds.

Turn: (4.00 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero ???

Comments afterwards.

Re: Interesting Turn Decision With JJ Overpair
 

Bets and calls down if you think villian will c/r with a worse pp or draw or bets and folds if you think villian will only c/r with a 9 or straight. Checking is a bad option IMO.

Re: Interesting Turn Decision With JJ Overpair
 

I think you have a choice between bet the turn and fold to a raise, or check behind on the turn and call the river for the same cost of 1 bet. Your best choice is probably read dependant IMHO.

So if you thought that your opponent was loose passive, I would sugggest betting the turn to protect against overcards and folding to a raise, as a lot of players like to slowplay trips on the flop and attempt a check raise on the turn.

However against a tight agressive oppenent, I would prefer to check behind on the turn and call the river, to avoid having to call a turn raise in case my opponent was semi-bluff raising with a weaker pair or flush draw.

Re: Interesting Turn Decision With JJ Overpair
 

I'd bet here. I think it's more likely that he has overcards and is hoping to spike top pair than it is that he called a raise OOP with a hand that includes a 9 - especially given how tight he plays pre-flop.

Re: Interesting Turn Decision With JJ Overpair
 

Bets. If you get c/r...I don't know, would he pull off a c/r bluff? I think you'd have to call down.

Re: Interesting Turn Decision With JJ Overpair
 

This reminds me some of the turn play section in HPFAP. DS talks about frequently checking the turn with strong hands in order to c/r your opponents and have them fear a turn c/r enough to give you free cards when you need them. Pretty good stuff. I am not saying this opponent is that advanced but by checking you are giving him the best of it.

Re: Interesting Turn Decision With JJ Overpair
 

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Bets and calls down if you think villian will c/r with a worse pp or draw or bets and folds if you think villian will only c/r with a 9 or straight. Checking is a bad option IMO.

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I think checking is an ok option if we don't know how to react to a c/r from the villian. Yes we give a free card to KQ or AJ or something that has 6 outs, put the post is small and we make that up by not being face with a c/r and maybe getting a bet on the river from a KQ/AJ hand that might have folded the turn.

If I had a strong read on villian though and felt more comfortable with what do with a c/r I think we have to bet though.

Re: Interesting Turn Decision With JJ Overpair
 

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This reminds me some of the turn play section in HPFAP. DS talks about frequently checking the turn with strong hands in order to c/r your opponents and have them fear a turn c/r enough to give you free cards when you need them. Pretty good stuff. I am not saying this opponent is that advanced but by checking you are giving him the best of it.

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This advice is very useful for squeezing extra EV out of people as well as checking behind on the turn HU to induce a bluff. These are obviously situation and opponent specific. Both have helped me get a little more out of people at 2/4 (when I use them correctly).

In this hand I would bet the turn to avoid giving a free card. theres too many overcards to my pair of 9s to risk having it checked through.

If opponent is straightforward post-flop, you have an easy fold to a check-raise.

If villain likes to get tricky, call the check-raise, see what comes on the turn and most likely call down.

Re: Interesting Turn Decision With JJ Overpair
 

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Bets and calls down if you think villian will c/r with a worse pp or draw or bets and folds if you think villian will only c/r with a 9 or straight. Checking is a bad option IMO.

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I think checking is an ok option if we don't know how to react to a c/r from the villian. Yes we give a free card to KQ or AJ or something that has 6 outs, put the post is small and we make that up by not being face with a c/r and maybe getting a bet on the river from a KQ/AJ hand that might have folded the turn.

If I had a strong read on villian though and felt more comfortable with what do with a c/r I think we have to bet though.

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Hi Tehox i couldn't disagree more. What are we so worried about here getting outplayed or moved off the best hand? No reason to give this guy infinite odds to draw or not gain value from a worse made hand than ours. FWIW if he is drawing he pays a bet on the turn not on the river. If he misses i doubt he bluffs at the river all that often into a pot this size. If he does c/r and hero decides to call down he gains good info on how this guy plays post flop what he calls open raises with from the sb etc etc which could help him later in a pot much larger than this one. Checking because you fear getting check/raised here is just bad poker IMO.

Re: Interesting Turn Decision With JJ Overpair
 

Interesting responses.

I think I'll throw in the next piece of the puzzle for kicks...

Turn: (4.00 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">SB raises</font>, Hero ???

Re: Interesting Turn Decision With JJ Overpair
 

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Interesting responses.

I think I'll throw in the next piece of the puzzle for kicks...

Turn: (4.00 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">SB raises</font>, Hero ???

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Think of it this way if behind you have between 2 and four outs you are almost never drawing dead here. Some % of the times you are actually ahead here so calling down doesn't actually cost you 2bb's. -EV probably but not anywhere near 2bb's worth. Also you gain important info on villian's post flop play which you must not have since you are asking what to do here. On the flip side folding costs you the same 1bb that checking the turn and calling his river bet does and the pot is not large. Sometimes you fold the best hand when playing optimal poker. Weigh the pluses and minuse of each and decide what you feel is best.

Re: Interesting Turn Decision With JJ Overpair
 

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Bets and calls down if you think villian will c/r with a worse pp or draw or bets and folds if you think villian will only c/r with a 9 or straight. Checking is a bad option IMO.

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I think checking is an ok option if we don't know how to react to a c/r from the villian. Yes we give a free card to KQ or AJ or something that has 6 outs, put the post is small and we make that up by not being face with a c/r and maybe getting a bet on the river from a KQ/AJ hand that might have folded the turn.

If I had a strong read on villian though and felt more comfortable with what do with a c/r I think we have to bet though.

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Hi Tehox i couldn't disagree more. What are we so worried about here getting outplayed or moved off the best hand? No reason to give this guy infinite odds to draw or not gain value from a worse made hand than ours. FWIW if he is drawing he pays a bet on the turn not on the river. If he misses i doubt he bluffs at the river all that often into a pot this size. If he does c/r and hero decides to call down he gains good info on how this guy plays post flop what he calls open raises with from the sb etc etc which could help him later in a pot much larger than this one. Checking because you fear getting check/raised here is just bad poker IMO.

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Hey seanc, in your first post you say either bet/fold or bet/call depending on read. But all we have it PT numbers. So you're saying bet/call is your default against a player with these numbers?

Anyways I think betting the turn here is correct against most opponents and I would bet if I had played this hand. Not sure what I would do if c/r though.

But I do think that checking behind the turn is a viable option, especially against a tricky/aggressive opponent (that for example might c/r us with trips or flushdraw or PP), for the reasons I stated above, though your points are well taken. And with JJ I think we have to worry a lot more about giving free card than if we have KK.

So basically I'm just clarifying that I'm not saying "Check because you fear getting check/raised". I'm saying that check b/c it might be the more +EV play, though personally I would need a better read that villian is that type of tricky aggressive player other than PT numbers to check behind here.

Re: Interesting Turn Decision With JJ Overpair
 

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Interesting responses.

I think I'll throw in the next piece of the puzzle for kicks...

Turn: (4.00 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">SB raises</font>, Hero ???

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It sounds like this guy is a regular at the site that you play. I think I would call down b/c you have the best hand often enough to make it close, and the added info you get by seeing his hand might gain you more bets/ cause you to lose fewer bets, in the future.

Re: Interesting Turn Decision With JJ Overpair
 

I think you have to call down. I think there's a reasonable chance he could be semi-bluffing with diamonds+overs or betting a worse 2pair.

Re: Interesting Turn Decision With JJ Overpair
 

bet the turn and call it down.
river a J just to rub it in.

Re: Interesting Turn Decision With JJ Overpair
 

u can probably rule out him having 9s since he's so tight preflop.

bet the turn. if c/r'ed call him down. i'd be surprised if he has a 9 here.

Re: Interesting Turn Decision With JJ Overpair
 

I would bet the turn.

I think checking is only good if you're sure this guy will always fold a worse hand to a bet, always bluff at the river if you check it through on the turn, and never check-raise with a worse hand. That's a pretty big parlay.

I'd also call it down after he raises. I think you'll see 77-TT or 6x more than 20% of the time. After all, you've probably got AK, right?

Re: Interesting Turn Decision With JJ Overpair
 

[ QUOTE ]
Interesting responses.

I think I'll throw in the next piece of the puzzle for kicks...

Turn: (4.00 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">SB raises</font>, Hero ???

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3-bet the turn. check/call the river.
if capped- fold.

Re: Interesting Turn Decision With JJ Overpair
 

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I would bet the turn.

I think checking is only good if you're sure this guy will always fold a worse hand to a bet, always bluff at the river if you check it through on the turn, and never check-raise with a worse hand. That's a pretty big parlay.

I'd also call it down after he raises. I think you'll see 77-TT or 6x more than 20% of the time. After all, you've probably got AK, right?

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I agree with pretty much everything you say and I'm starting to think that checking behind is pretty much never right at these limits without a super read. Don't know if it was a mistype, but one of the reasons to check the turn is that he would c/r with a worse hand, but at the correct percentage that we are screwed whether we call or fold. If he never c/r a worse hand we can safely fold to a turn c/r.

Re: Interesting Turn Decision With JJ Overpair
 

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Interesting responses.

I think I'll throw in the next piece of the puzzle for kicks...

Turn: (4.00 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">SB raises</font>, Hero ???

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3-bet the turn. check/call the river.
if capped- fold.

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I don't think this can be correct. The reason so is what % of the time do you think we're ahead when he c/r us? For a 3 bet to be correct, we have to have the best hand &gt;50% of the time which IMO is not the case.

Re: Interesting Turn Decision With JJ Overpair
 

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Interesting responses.

I think I'll throw in the next piece of the puzzle for kicks...

Turn: (4.00 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">SB raises</font>, Hero ???

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3-bet the turn. check/call the river.
if capped- fold.

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I don't think this can be correct. The reason so is what % of the time do you think we're ahead when he c/r us? For a 3 bet to be correct, we have to have the best hand &gt;50% of the time which IMO is not the case.

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I'm with Noob on this one. Calling this down sucks IMO because he's going to bet the river 100% of the time and it doesn't cost us any less when we're behind assuming we fold to a cap. If you're not going to fold this you should 3-bet for the same reason you bet in the first place.

Re: Interesting Turn Decision With JJ Overpair
 

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Interesting responses.

I think I'll throw in the next piece of the puzzle for kicks...

Turn: (4.00 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">SB raises</font>, Hero ???

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3-bet the turn. check/call the river.
if capped- fold.

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I don't think this can be correct. The reason so is what % of the time do you think we're ahead when he c/r us? For a 3 bet to be correct, we have to have the best hand &gt;50% of the time which IMO is not the case.

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I'm with Noob on this one. Calling this down sucks IMO because he's going to bet the river 100% of the time and it doesn't cost us any less when we're behind assuming we fold to a cap. If you're not going to fold this you should 3-bet for the same reason you bet in the first place.

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If we are ahead we want him betting the river not folding to our turn 3-bet.

Re: Interesting Turn Decision With JJ Overpair
 

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Interesting responses.

I think I'll throw in the next piece of the puzzle for kicks...

Turn: (4.00 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">SB raises</font>, Hero ???

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3-bet the turn. check/call the river.
if capped- fold.

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I don't think this can be correct. The reason so is what % of the time do you think we're ahead when he c/r us? For a 3 bet to be correct, we have to have the best hand &gt;50% of the time which IMO is not the case.

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I'm with Noob on this one. Calling this down sucks IMO because he's going to bet the river 100% of the time and it doesn't cost us any less when we're behind assuming we fold to a cap. If you're not going to fold this you should 3-bet for the same reason you bet in the first place.

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If we are ahead we want him betting the river not folding to our turn 3-bet.

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If he has T2, yeah. Not if he has AK, AQ, KQ, or [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]'s.

Re: Interesting Turn Decision With JJ Overpair
 

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Interesting responses.

I think I'll throw in the next piece of the puzzle for kicks...

Turn: (4.00 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">SB raises</font>, Hero ???

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3-bet the turn. check/call the river.
if capped- fold.

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I don't think this can be correct. The reason so is what % of the time do you think we're ahead when he c/r us? For a 3 bet to be correct, we have to have the best hand &gt;50% of the time which IMO is not the case.

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I'm with Noob on this one. Calling this down sucks IMO because he's going to bet the river 100% of the time and it doesn't cost us any less when we're behind assuming we fold to a cap. If you're not going to fold this you should 3-bet for the same reason you bet in the first place.

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We bet in the first place b/c we think we have the best hand. Now we get c/r. Let's say, for example his c/r means 66% of the time he has trips, and 33% of the time a hand we beat. We have to call down, but a 3 bet is bad b/c have the best hand &lt;%50 of the time.

Re: Interesting Turn Decision With JJ Overpair
 

McGahee good point. If he calls and donks a river blank hero calls or folds?

Re: Interesting Turn Decision With JJ Overpair
 

I don't really see why this is really that close. The turn is really really obvious. We're betting for value, because we have the best hand a good amount of the time, and we are betting because we cannot afford to give a free card. How can anyone suggest checking this when villain could hold any overcard?

Re: Interesting Turn Decision With JJ Overpair
 

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Interesting responses.

I think I'll throw in the next piece of the puzzle for kicks...

Turn: (4.00 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">SB raises</font>, Hero ???

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3-bet the turn. check/call the river.
if capped- fold.

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I don't think this can be correct. The reason so is what % of the time do you think we're ahead when he c/r us? For a 3 bet to be correct, we have to have the best hand &gt;50% of the time which IMO is not the case.

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I'm sorry, but I just can't put him on a 9 here. Villian is at 14.3% VP$P, and that's through almost 600 hands, so we can safely assume he plays tight preflop. He called a raise from the SB, knowing he'd be OOP the rest of the hand against a pre-flop raiser. His PFR% is high enough that I'd expect to see a re-raise if he had AA/KK/QQ (but not much else). The only hands I can see him doing that with that beat us are 99 and maybe, possibly, A9s if he's feeling really lucky. If he's got 99 and flopped quads, we pay him off, tell him "nice hand" and move on.

But, I think we're still ahead enough times to justify a 3-bet here, and if he caps, just check/call the river.

Re: Interesting Turn Decision With JJ Overpair
 

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Interesting responses.

I think I'll throw in the next piece of the puzzle for kicks...

Turn: (4.00 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">SB raises</font>, Hero ???

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3-bet the turn. check/call the river.
if capped- fold.

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I don't think this can be correct. The reason so is what % of the time do you think we're ahead when he c/r us? For a 3 bet to be correct, we have to have the best hand &gt;50% of the time which IMO is not the case.

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I'm with Noob on this one. Calling this down sucks IMO because he's going to bet the river 100% of the time and it doesn't cost us any less when we're behind assuming we fold to a cap. If you're not going to fold this you should 3-bet for the same reason you bet in the first place.

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this is bad logic.

there is X% chance we are ahead but we're unsure what that X is. but it's not super small.

if we pay the same amount either way, shouldn't we go to showdown and have a chance to win the pot?

Re: Interesting Turn Decision With JJ Overpair
 

Addtionally, by folding to a cap, we forfeit what might be 4 outs.

Re: Interesting Turn Decision With JJ Overpair
 

the only reason to 3-bet is:

1. he c/r on a semi-bluff [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] and check/fold the river UI.

2. call our 3-bet with 88/77 and pay off UI on the river.

otherwise i just call down.

Re: Interesting Turn Decision With JJ Overpair
 

i'd 3-bet here because we're def going to find out whether we're ahead or behind.

if it's raised, we're behind and folding is not a bad option.
if it's called, the chances of us gettin a free show down is good enough to justify the 3 bet i think.

Re: Interesting Turn Decision With JJ Overpair
 

if we call, the river will bet bet. that's 4 bb from the turn/river. are we going to fold the river unless we spike a J?

if we 3 bet, three things can happen: the villain can fold, call, raise.

if he folds we win. that's good.
if he calls, we can check/call the river- will cost us the same as calling down.
if he raises, we can fold for a cost of 3 bets. at this pt are we getting enough pot odds to justify to call a cap and the bet on the river?

Re: Interesting Turn Decision With JJ Overpair
 

For those who want to fold in the face of this sudden aggression, what hand do you put him on that -

a) includes a 9
b) is played by someone with 14% VP$P
c) is good enough to call a raise OOP from the small blind, but not good enough to re-raise?

Outside of pocket 9's, I can't think of any. And if that's what he had - well, that's poker.

If he's the typical fish who plays 40-50% VP$P and has no concept of position, then yes, I can easily put him on a hand with a 9 here. But he's not...

Re: Interesting Turn Decision With JJ Overpair
 

I can definitely see SB playing A9s and maybe K9s from the SB if he thinks Hero has been stealing alot on the table.

This is tough to put him on a nine though with his numbers. A tight aggressive player will typically lead the flop with a nine hoping the preflop raiser reraises then go for the check raise on the turn. Waiting till the turn to check raise your trips is such a fish move and if the guy was a 30+ VPIPer I would say he has a nine everytime.

Re: Interesting Turn Decision With JJ Overpair
 

but if it's capped on the turn, do you see the SB with 55 or 66?

Re: Interesting Turn Decision With JJ Overpair
 

I bet the turn but where is the love in this thread for 87s?

Re: Interesting Turn Decision With JJ Overpair
 

If we know that he'll bet the river if we call, but he'll fold if we make it three bets, then it's clearly not correct to 3bet.

Re: Interesting Turn Decision With JJ Overpair
 

I know the mantra lately is 'get to showdown no matter what with top pair or better' but I don't think 14 VP$IP players at 1/2 level are getting cute that often on paired turns. I'd fold when you get checkraised

Re: Interesting Turn Decision With JJ Overpair
 

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but if it's capped on the turn, do you see the SB with 55 or 66?

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That becomes more of a possiblity if he caps (66 more so than 55). Either way, if he caps it, I definitely slow down on the river, unless another Jack hits. (and if the jack hits and he had 99 after all, it's another trip to the computer store for a new mouse...)

And for some humorous reason, I can just see the Villian on some other board - "I flopped quads, and this guy 3-bets me on the turn!! Can you believe that?" [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

Re: Interesting Turn Decision With JJ Overpair
 

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I know the mantra lately is 'get to showdown no matter what with top pair or better' but I don't think 14 VP$IP players at 1/2 level are getting cute that often on paired turns. I'd fold when you get checkraised

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Which is exactly why I will C/R here with AK on occasion when the conditions are right (HU against a relatively loose pre-flop raiser). One of three things will happen -

1. He folds outright because he's scared of the paired board, and I've just stolen the pot. I'm actually surprised at the number of times this has worked - especially if I know the other person likes to lead out each street with nothing.

2. He calls, and I can usually get a free showdown by checking the river again, as he fears another C/R.

3. He 3-bets, and I make it clear I was bluffing by immediately folding. Everybody sees this, and when I do get my monster hand, I get a lot more action than I would otherwise.

Now, obviously, I don't do this a lot, but it is a nice way to mix things up once in a while.