DERB
 

Since the new one got locked...

And why did it get locked? Dcifir- is fun bad?

This is news and gossip. not strategy, Barron

Wow, you give Baron moderator priviliges, and he kills one of the most meaningful strategy discussions in the entire forum. Just because you don't want it to be about strategy doesn't mean that's true. The whole discussion revolves around the concept strategy.

Amazing.

- Andrew

www.pokerstove.com

Re: DERB
 

barron, plz stop.
we like the derb thread... derb prob likes it as well, haha.
IMO, u lock threads that stupid ppl start, no need to lock JVs thread... gossip is fun. chill. this is the forum we look at.

Re: DERB
 

[ QUOTE ]
Since the new one got locked...

And why did it get locked? Dcifir- is fun bad?

This is news and gossip. not strategy, Barron

Wow, you give Baron moderator priviliges, and he kills one of the most meaningful strategy discussions in the entire forum. Just because you don't want it to be about strategy doesn't mean that's true. The whole discussion revolves around the concept strategy.

Amazing.

- Andrew

www.pokerstove.com

[/ QUOTE ]

yes. the actual REASON why derb does so well is important strategy. but look at the responses. they are ALL simply speculation, amusing annecdotes etc. further, the original DERB post is so large and cumbersome that its annoying to have blocking other threads from being created and read.

Andrew, i definately respect your opinion and will definately leave this thread opened so long as it doesn't degenerate into a he said she said no analysis conjecture and annecdote thread.

and i'll start:

having played with DERB for a long time now, from experience I'd say there is virtually no question he is a very strong winning player.

I have noticed that DERB's VPIP has dropped and his AF has remained constant from the 30/60 game Ive played with him to the higher limit ones. DERB used to be 29 or 30vpip and has dropped a %point to 27-28.

DERB still, however, seems to call down with hands that just can't win. ever. I think he does this to prevent ever getting bluffed out of the pot. but eventually he should adjust if he is as good of a player as the rest of his game indicates.

-Barron

Re: DERB
 

[ QUOTE ]
barron, plz stop.
we like the derb thread... derb prob likes it as well, haha.
IMO, u lock threads that stupid ppl start, no need to lock JVs thread... gossip is fun. chill. this is the forum we look at.

[/ QUOTE ]


or maybe move it to the land of misfit posts, general hold'em. long threads like that are good there since there's not much traffic so 300 post threads don't block much. here, a lot of people post hands and it sucks when they get bumped to the second page because of one thread. I agree it's a good thread since it's starting to look like he might not be a lottery winner

Re: DERB
 

[ QUOTE ]
barron, plz stop.
we like the derb thread... derb prob likes it as well, haha.
IMO, u lock threads that stupid ppl start, no need to lock JVs thread... gossip is fun. chill. this is the forum we look at.

[/ QUOTE ]

agreed. this thread can stay open, but at least try to keep it strategy related. gossiping and what not is fine for NVG. taking huge long threads about one poster saying another poster's opinion is not valid w/o evidence and argument/discussion, imo is a waste. that combined with the trend of the gossipy nature of the threads was why i locked them.

Barron

Re: DERB
 

locking derb threads is retarded. there is signifigant value to be found in simply thinking about the possibility of winning bigger, or even the same, with bizarre-looking stats.

it doesn't matter if the posts are random. i don't pay any particular attention to the useless replies, but they serve as a reminder of the key point when the thread gets bumped via random discussion.

Re: DERB
 

[ QUOTE ]
locking derb threads is retarded. there is signifigant value to be found in simply thinking about the possibility of winning bigger, or even the same, with bizarre-looking stats.

[/ QUOTE ]
this thread remains unlocked for strategy considerations. please dont turn it into reasons to unlock the other ones.

Barron

Re: DERB
 

i know you think you're acting in the forum's best interest here, which is a good thing in spirit.

in practice it's terrible, and you're completely misusing your mod privileges.

trying to shoehorn and direct discussions into an actively governed thread here is 100% lame.

Re: DERB
 

So any thoughts on why exactly you think he is such a good player. It seems like his stats are unconventional but from what I hear he is clearly a winning player (I've never played with him) Is it his image, aggressiveness, etc. Just wondering as to what he does differently that the rest of us don't do. Is he exceptional at hand reading and getting out of sticky situations?

Scags

Re: DERB
 

What you ignore Dcifir, is that as goofy and internetty as this is- each forum does creat a sense of community. I think that's not as strong here as in micro, HUSH, SS, but it does exist.

The fact is that if you won't to talk about something gossipy in NVG, the discussion will be 100X more lame, because people who are not high-stakes poker players dominate that forum, and even if it's all jokes, it will be jokes that lack the context of the experience that posters in this form typically have.

Viewing the strat forums as strictly 100% strat is probably missing the boat in terms of how these forums have operated.

Re: DERB
 

[ QUOTE ]
What you ignore Dcifir, is that as goofy and internetty as this is- each forum does creat a sense of community. I think that's not as strong here as in micro, HUSH, SS, but it does exist.

[/ QUOTE ]

totally true, and it's hanging on by a thread. crap like this is stomping on it - the idea of the action being taken moreso than the target of the action.

Re: DERB
 

[ QUOTE ]

and i'll start:

having played with DERB for a long time now, from experience I'd say there is virtually no question he is a very strong winning player.

I have noticed that DERB's VPIP has dropped and his AF has remained constant from the 30/60 game Ive played with him to the higher limit ones. DERB used to be 29 or 30vpip and has dropped a %point to 27-28.

DERB still, however, seems to call down with hands that just can't win. ever. I think he does this to prevent ever getting bluffed out of the pot. but eventually he should adjust if he is as good of a player as the rest of his game indicates.

-Barron

[/ QUOTE ]

The only part of his game that appears to be good is his pre-flop play, because post-flop it looks like he missed Hand-Reading 101. It's bet-bet-bet and raise-raise-raise and hope everyone folds, or, call down or keep raising when hopelessly behind and lose a ton of bets. No big deal though, he'll then get back when they go back to fold-fold-fold.

I think you could give a monkey his starting hand chart, tell him to bet when checked to and never to fold any pair, and he could have similar success - at least that's my suspicion anyway.

There is no arguing that it is very effective, I just can't bring myself to start 3 betting hands that I know are way, way, way behind the range of the guy opening. It seems to work though, you just have to have the cajones to play that way.

Re: DERB
 

I hate to be the village idiot but what is derb's full handle?

Re: DERB
 

[ QUOTE ]
i know you think you're acting in the forum's best interest here, which is a good thing in spirit.

in practice it's terrible, and you're completely misusing your mod privileges.

trying to shoehorn and direct discussions into an actively governed thread here is 100% lame.

[/ QUOTE ]


I'm not quite sure why everyone's giving him such a hard time. I guess it's all a matter of philosophy but I believe that all the terrible threads should be deleted ASAP. the DERB thread may not be bad, but I can understand him not wanting it to block other decent threads

Re: DERB
 

[ QUOTE ]
I hate to be the village idiot but what is derb's full handle?

[/ QUOTE ]

It used to be Lojzka but I think he changed it.

Re: DERB
 

Loijzka plays like Erik1234.

-or--

Loijzka plays like steve95

--or---

Loijzka plays like MaxMuller

discuss.

Re: DERB
 

[ QUOTE ]
Loijzka plays like Erik1234.

-or--

Loijzka plays like steve95

--or---

Loijzka plays like MaxMuller

discuss.

[/ QUOTE ]

what % of the people on this forum have even played a single hand against any of these people?

Re: DERB
 

that's a good way to foster nice discussion.

of the players that have, I bet more than a few have an interesting opinion. It is my opinion that there are some similarities, and all 4 players are big winner in my opinino, there are those that will say steve is a fish, I would argue they are from the DERB is a fish camp.

were you in that camp? should I go through the big thread and quote to point out the people that correctly analyzed his ability?

Re: DERB
 

[ QUOTE ]
that's a good way to foster nice discussion.

of the players that have, I bet more than a few have an interesting opinion. It is my opinion that there are some similarities, and all 4 players are big winner in my opinino, there are those that will say steve is a fish, I would argue they are from the DERB is a fish camp.

were you in that camp? should I go through the big thread and quote to point out the people that correctly analyzed his ability?

[/ QUOTE ]

I was in the camp that said DERB was probably a loser against the solid players who recognize him for what he is, but that he destroys the weak players to a much greater degree than a more straightforward player like myself might.

Re: DERB
 

[ QUOTE ]
It is my opinion that there are some similarities, and all 4 players are big winner in my opinino, there are those that will say steve is a fish, I would argue they are from the DERB is a fish camp.

[/ QUOTE ]

Stox,

Don't take my comments about DERB to indicate that i believe he is a fish. He obviously is a huge winner, however I do believe that his style, in theory, should be relatively easy to emulate.

The strength of his game seems to be his pre-flop/post-flop ground and pound combination. It does not appear to be terribly "skillful" though as he seems to make many post-flop errors when he is obviously behind. I'm also amazed at how low his ASB is relative to his PFR %.

I'd be interested in hearing your opinion on his play and why you think it works so well.

Thanks,

Nigel

Re: DERB
 

[ QUOTE ]
Loijzka plays like Erik1234.

-or--

Loijzka plays like steve95

--or---

Loijzka plays like MaxMuller

discuss.

[/ QUOTE ]

if derb really is erik sagstrom than that would deffinately explain why he's so damn good post-flop and why he doesnt need to play conventional 2+2 pre-flop. From what I understand he's a consistent 300/600 winner on many sites.

Re: DERB
 

OMG unlock the original DERB thread. It was like my favorite thread ever. uggh!

Re: DERB
 

[ QUOTE ]
than that would deffinately explain why he's so damn good post-flop

[/ QUOTE ]

Examples of this post-flop brilliance please.

Re: DERB
 

[ QUOTE ]
OMG unlock the original DERB thread.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: DERB
 

[ QUOTE ]
I was in the camp that said DERB was probably a loser against the solid players who recognize him for what he is, but that he destroys the weak players to a much greater degree than a more straightforward player like myself might.


[/ QUOTE ]

that was the camp i was referring too. I would like to be able play like thim. Evidently there are not to many "solid players" at party 30 (I disagree), though, because he is arguably one of the biggest winners in that game.

Re: DERB
 

can someone tell me what the result of this was? half a year later some conclusions must have been drawn.

Re: DERB
 

saying he is "obviously a huge winner"

and

"his style should be easy to emulate"

is a contradiction. the analysis is not easy or straightforward. for now I will wait and see, just pick apart other's posts El Diablo style, rather than write my opinion on the whole matter. (though my opinion is evident, just not what I think the why and how is)

His style of play could fill a book.

Re: DERB
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
than that would deffinately explain why he's so damn good post-flop

[/ QUOTE ]

Examples of this post-flop brilliance please.

[/ QUOTE ]

I know he's pulled crazy runner-runner, cap all the way and win on the river crap (according to you anyway), but he's a great overall post-flop player from some of the railing i've done at 3/6.

sorry no hh's

Re: DERB
 

[ QUOTE ]
Loijzka plays like Erik1234.

-or--

Loijzka plays like steve95

--or---

Loijzka plays like MaxMuller

discuss.

[/ QUOTE ]

Putting Steve95 in the same league as those other two should be a crime against humanity. I have no substantial amount of hands vs DERB but I from what I read about his style of play, he sounds similar to Steve95 except Steve doesn't make as many stupid payoffs (but counters with plenty of stupid aggression when it's obvious he's beat). I think the difference between Steve and Erik/Max is those two are tenfold better hand readers.

Re: DERB
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Loijzka plays like Erik1234.

-or--

Loijzka plays like steve95

--or---

Loijzka plays like MaxMuller

discuss.

[/ QUOTE ]

Putting Steve95 in the same league as those other two should be a crime against humanity. I have no substantial amount of hands vs DERB but I from what I read about his style of play, he sounds similar to Steve95 except Steve doesn't make as many stupid payoffs (but counters with plenty of stupid aggression when it's obvious he's beat). I think the difference between Steve and Erik/Max is those two are tenfold better hand readers.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not (necessarily) grouping those 4 players together as of equal ability or winrate. Please dont assume I am.

Re: DERB
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Loijzka plays like Erik1234.

-or--

Loijzka plays like steve95

--or---

Loijzka plays like MaxMuller

discuss.

[/ QUOTE ]

Putting Steve95 in the same league as those other two should be a crime against humanity. I have no substantial amount of hands vs DERB but I from what I read about his style of play, he sounds similar to Steve95 except Steve doesn't make as many stupid payoffs (but counters with plenty of stupid aggression when it's obvious he's beat). I think the difference between Steve and Erik/Max is those two are tenfold better hand readers.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not (necessarily) grouping those 4 players together as of equal ability or winrate. Please dont assume I am.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry. I read it as:

A=B?
A=C?
A=D?

So... B=C=D. My mistake.

Re: DERB
 

[ QUOTE ]
saying he is "obviously a huge winner"

and

"his style should be easy to emulate"

is a contradiction.


[/ QUOTE ]

That's not necessarily true. He may be playing in a way that may make him a near mathematical certainty to win providing people keep folding to him like they do.



[ QUOTE ]

the analysis is not easy or straightforward. for now I will wait and see, just pick apart other's posts El Diablo style, rather than write my opinion on the whole matter. (though my opinion is evident, just not what I think the why and how is)

His style of play could fill a book.

[/ QUOTE ]


I have played a fair amount with him and have never seen him do anything post-flop that I said, "wow, slick". But, I have seen many, many hands where I said "what on earth is he thinking" - like betting and calling a raise on river after his low two pair has, at the bare minimum, obviously been counterfeited; or capping all 4 streets with low set when it's obviously no good. It's hard to imagine someone so good could seem to often have no idea where he is in a hand.

I hope at some point you do comment on the how's and why's, I think there is a lot to learn from his play.

Re: DERB
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
saying he is "obviously a huge winner"

and

"his style should be easy to emulate"

is a contradiction.


[/ QUOTE ]

That's not necessarily true. He may be playing in a way that may make him a near mathematical certainty to win providing people keep folding to him like they do.

[/ QUOTE ]


It has to be true, otherwise you would have to redefine "huge" of huge winner. Or put another way - if it's so easy - go ahead and emulate it yourself, I'm sure many would like to have his hourly earn.

Re: DERB
 

DERB plays v well postflop, thats all im gonna say...
he has one huge leak and that is paying off the river w/ hands that will never ever win. like, never.

Re: DERB
 

[ QUOTE ]
DERB plays v well postflop, thats all im gonna say...
he has one huge leak and that is paying off the river w/ hands that will never ever win. like, never.

[/ QUOTE ]

How much of an impact do you think these payoffs have the next time someone is considering bluffing him? Couldnt throwing away a full BB into one pot in exchange for winning the entire next pot because they are afraid to bluff you be a good trade?

Re: DERB
 

Can someone post some hands?

Re: DERB
 

[ QUOTE ]
other decent threads

[/ QUOTE ]
what other decent threads, there hasn't been anything worth reading or thinking about on here for a few days at least.
dave

Re: DERB
 

I'm with Mr. Prock in that is was one of the most meaningful threads ever in that it's very possible that a lot of 2+2 dogma may be misguided. However, that thread was a jungle. Tough to have anymore meaningful poker discussion in that thread. I think a new one would be a good idea.

I don't have an accurate update of DERB. I know someone does and I hope they post it. I'd like to see his results filtered for 8+ and less. I would expect him to be a loser 8+ and a winner in the shorter games. He's probably a monster with 4 players or less.

Re: DERB
 

Bad judgement dcfr. Unlock it. Cmon now.

Re: DERB
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
DERB plays v well postflop, thats all im gonna say...
he has one huge leak and that is paying off the river w/ hands that will never ever win. like, never.

[/ QUOTE ]
Couldnt throwing away a full BB into one pot in exchange for winning the entire next pot because they are afraid to bluff you be a good trade?

[/ QUOTE ]
hand yesterday... MP opens, DERB 3bet, MP capit. HU.

MP is tight passive... not too good. his cap mean TT-AA, AK i think.

flop Q83
checkcall
turn 2
checkcheck
river 8
betcall

MP shows JJ, winner.
DERB mucks A4.
serious.

that river call is a winning play? LOL!