Maybe I fold Too Much
 

Villain 36/9.77/1.61 over 133 hands. Turn aggr. is 1.88.

I've never seen him CR the turn before.

A loose bad player opens in CO, I 3-bet with

A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], BB (the villain) calls two, CO calls. 3

to the flop for 9 SBs. The flop is

9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. BB bets out, CO calls, I call.

Turn is A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], BB checks, CO checks, I bet, BB

checkraises, CO folds, my effective odds are 6:1.

I'm running Baaaaaaad and I'm all confused.

Re: Maybe I fold Too Much
 

I hate it when donks are actually good at hand reading and pull crap like this [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]. I usually still end up calling down as you will either a) have some outs to draw to on the river and b) you have TPTK and BB might actually be doing this with smaller A (I swear I've seen a ton of donks lead flops into me with A-high after I raised preflop).

Re: Maybe I fold Too Much
 

I call this down. But, then again, I think I call down a little too much.

Typically, when I see FPS that I haven't seen before, like here, I'll choose "call down" if the decision's close, because I want to know how to react the next time I see a play like this.

Re: Maybe I fold Too Much
 

I call down because of the reasons mentioned previously. I think you are drawing to 3 outs here [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

Re: Maybe I fold Too Much
 

I think you have to call down.

The turn check-raise from BB is odd in my opinion. I have trouble putting BB on a hand that beats Hero that makes sense to check/raise. Q9(9), AQ(6), 22(3), 99(3), QQ(3) would often have bet the turn hoping for a raise from Hero. BB puts CO and Hero on a draw and would not like to see the turn checked through. If BB has a hand that beats Hero, he does not need to use a check/raise to protect against most draws to two pair or gut shots. Flush draws and OESD's are not folding regardless. I think if BB is ahead, he has to bet the turn.

I think he is often enough semi-bluffing with a good draw or raising with a weaker A, another AK, or a pocket pair. I think it is a call and perhaps even a raise (but I don't give BB enough credit for playing the hand right). A fold is out of the question in my opinion.

Re: Maybe I fold Too Much
 

Villain's hand really feels like AQ or A9. I suppose he could be getting tricksy with a hand like JTs or something. I folded and that was that. Lots of good arguments for calling down though.

Re: Maybe I fold Too Much
 

I call and fold the river if I don't improve to two pair or better, and I'm not sure if this is right or not.

Re: Maybe I fold Too Much
 

I probably call down too much, but I think I'd at least call the turn here.

My reasons: villian is loose and called out of the BB, so he could have a goofy 2 pair like Q9 (or even Q2), giving us 5 outs; he may have just picked up a flush draw to go with his pair and is trying to semi-bluff you off your A; he may be getting frisky with a worse A or even another AK.

I don't think that calling the turn neccessarily means you have to call a river bet UI. I think some of the time villain will give up and check the river (possibly even with a weak 2 pair) and some of the time you'll improve and can raise.

Re: Maybe I fold Too Much
 

[ QUOTE ]
he could have a goofy 2 pair like Q9 (or even Q2), giving us 5 outs

[/ QUOTE ]

If that's the case, we actually have 8 outs here.

I wonder how many of you advocating folding would actually call down less than 100% of the time here? I'd never call the turn and fold the river though. And I'd never fold the turn.

Re: Maybe I fold Too Much
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
he could have a goofy 2 pair like Q9 (or even Q2), giving us 5 outs

[/ QUOTE ]

If that's the case, we actually have 8 outs here.

I wonder how many of you advocating folding would actually call down less than 100% of the time here? I'd never call the turn and fold the river though. And I'd never fold the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good point. I see what you are saying about calling the turn and folding the river UI - it would be very difficult for me not to call that last bet getting 11:1 with TPTK. I guess what I'm getting at is that at least some of the time villain will check to you, so your effective odds on the turn aren't quite as bad as it seems.

One of the better posters wrote a long post about this (when calling the turn isn't as bad as it seems because opp. may check the river) - I'll see if I can find it.