Re: Runsfeld Clears Things Up
 

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Like M said you can debate the merits but you can't really say that this does not add up to provocation.



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No insult intended......that seems like a very naive point of view.

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Now I'm really puzzled. Naive...how?

And do you think Iraq did not act provocatively over many years?

Re: Runsfeld Clears Things Up
 

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Like M said you can debate the merits but you can't really say that this does not add up to provocation.



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No insult intended......that seems like a very naive point of view.

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Now I'm really puzzled. Naive...how?

And do you think Iraq did not act provocatively over many years?

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OK M.....We could get into a debate as to whether those actions you listed were 'provocative' or not, but that's not the issue.

The more important question is....Were these actions reasonable cause for a full scale military invasion of Iraq?

Re: Runsfeld Clears Things Up
 

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many years of defying/obstructing/delaying U.N. resolutions and inspections

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M, please, not the UN. We really don't care about UN resolutions, do we?

Re: Runsfeld Clears Things Up
 

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many years of defying/obstructing/delaying U.N. resolutions and inspections



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M, please, not the UN. We really don't care about UN resolutions, do we?


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Good point, John, haha;-) However, seeing as the U.N. resolutions regarding Iraq were in large part aligned with our own wishes, as well as with the terms of the cease-fire agreement, I think we do (and should) care.

Re: Runsfeld Clears Things Up
 

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OK M.....We could get into a debate as to whether those actions you listed were 'provocative' or not, but that's not the issue.

The more important question is....Were these actions reasonable cause for a full scale military invasion of Iraq?

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Well, I think so...though of course there were additional reasons as well, and some of them even more compelling.

Re: Runsfeld Clears Things Up
 

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many years of defying/obstructing/delaying U.N. resolutions and inspections



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M, please, not the UN. We really don't care about UN resolutions, do we?


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Good point, John, haha;-) However, seeing as the U.N. resolutions regarding Iraq were in large part aligned with our own wishes, as well as with the terms of the cease-fire agreement, I think we do (and should) care.

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Hmmm.....quite a self-interested POV at the least.

Let me paraphrase.....We agree with the UN and therefore take it upon our own shoulders to unilaterally take whatever action we deem fit (with or without UN sanction), unless we disagree with the UN, and then we again reserve the right to do the same.

Let's get back to the original issue.......

Re: Runsfeld Clears Things Up
 

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Good point, John, haha;-) However, seeing as the U.N. resolutions regarding Iraq were in large part aligned with our own wishes, as well as with the terms of the cease-fire agreement, I think we do (and should) care.



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Hmmm.....quite a self-interested POV at the least.

Let me paraphrase.....We agree with the UN and therefore take it upon our own shoulders to unilaterally take whatever action we deem fit (with or without UN sanction), unless we disagree with the UN, and then we again reserve the right to do the same.


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Yes, especially when a nasty, mass-murdering dictator is breaking the terms of the cease-fire agreement he has signed with us. That ALONE is cause for re-invading and deposing the SOB.

Re: Runsfeld Clears Things Up
 

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Good point, John, haha;-) However, seeing as the U.N. resolutions regarding Iraq were in large part aligned with our own wishes, as well as with the terms of the cease-fire agreement, I think we do (and should) care.



[/ QUOTE ]

Hmmm.....quite a self-interested POV at the least.

Let me paraphrase.....We agree with the UN and therefore take it upon our own shoulders to unilaterally take whatever action we deem fit (with or without UN sanction), unless we disagree with the UN, and then we again reserve the right to do the same.


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Yes, especially when a nasty, mass-murdering dictator is breaking the terms of the cease-fire agreement he has signed with us. That ALONE is cause for re-invading and deposing the SOB.

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I would say that our discussion is over, as you're using the same justification for action that the terrorists are, and lower yourself to their level by doing so.........

Another Rumsfeld Quote that shows he doesnt\' get it...
 

Rumsfeld on the Iraq conflict
The enemy hears a big debate in the United States, and they have to wonder maybe all we have to do is wait and we'll win. We can't win militarily. They know that. The battle is here in the United States," he told "Fox News Sunday."

Does anyone see a problem with his thinking? He seems to think that the insurgents are sitting there with baiting breath waiting for US to decide when to leave Iraq, and then end up attacking. But of course, it is clear we aren't fighting a conventional enemy. These guys don't just want the Americans to leave Iraq (which is inevitable). They want to kill Americans. If you stay in Iraq they will just look for americans to kill. You might kill some of them, but others will take their place. Rumsfeld seems to think the insurgents want us to leave. I bet he doesn't even consider that some of them want us to stay, so they can have the chance to kill americans. But rumsfeld just thinks this is a conventional battle against conventional opponents. He just doesn't get it.

Re: Runsfeld Clears Things Up
 

<font color="blue">That ALONE is cause for re-invading and deposing the SOB. </font>

When you are part of the UN you have a responsibility to act WITH the UN unless an imminent threat is present.

And that's really what it's all about, isn't it? "Imminent Threat? I'm an armchair obvserver and I had enough sense to know that Saddam Hussein was NOT an imminent threat to myself, family, or fellow US citizens. Not for a while anyway. There was a little something ELSE I was kinda concenered about though. A group that calls themselves Al-Qada. THEY were an imminent threat! So what do we do?

We put the REAL threat Bin Laden on the side, squander the important good-will from previous unlikely nations due to 9-11, create a recruiting boom for our enemy that they couldn't have dreamed possible, created BAD will amongst almost everyone, and mired ourselves in an unwinnable war at the cost of billions of dollars and thousands of US soldier's lives!

Yes, Saddam needed to be dealt with as do several other evil dictators, but this was like taking your eye off the mob in front of your house with torches and guns, and going after the kid with the squirt gun, because he's one of them and may grow up to hurt us at a later date.

I predict that this administration will go down as the most incompetent in history. They have literally turned me from a life long republican into a democrat. I'd vote for Mickey Mouse if it prevents another idiot like Bush from getting in. In fact, I'll bet Mickey's got a watch with a picture of George W Bush on it.