was this a bad play?
 

i'm just moving to six max tables from full ring games and am playing more heads up to four handed tables. i am not very experienced at short handed play and i am pretty much experimenting. i just sat down and i don't have stats on either players yet but the sb just went four bets on the flop with middle pair and no draw the previous hand.

PokerStars 3/6 Hold'em (3 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is BB with Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
<font color="#CC3333">Button raises</font>, SB calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (6 SB) T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, Hero calls, Button calls.

Turn: (4.50 BB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, Button folds, SB calls.

River: (8.50 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 9.50 BB

Re: was this a bad play?
 

The flop call is pretty thin since you're not closing the action. Not terrible though. The rest is good.

Re: was this a bad play?
 

[ QUOTE ]
The flop call is pretty thin since you're not closing the action. Not terrible though. The rest is good.

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah that's what i was thinking. but i figured if i'm going to defend my blind and flop a pair with two backdoor draws i might as well take a chance.

Re: was this a bad play?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The flop call is pretty thin since you're not closing the action. Not terrible though. The rest is good.

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah that's what i was thinking. but i figured if i'm going to defend my blind and flop a pair with two backdoor draws i might as well take a chance.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's close if you had a read that BT was passive it would be fine.

Re: was this a bad play?
 

dont raise the turn. take it to river and fold UI. then you can get a value raise on the river if you trip, two pair, or flush up. you're not pushing him off an ace or MAYBE even a ten here.

Re: was this a bad play?
 

Not sure about the turn raise here. You almost always need to improve here to win.

Re: was this a bad play?
 

I don't know if I like the PF call.
Flop is close, but I would fold. I just call the turn.
He's not releasing ace, ten, KJ, KQ, flush draws, maybe also not pairs on a double flush draw board.

Re: was this a bad play?
 

The blind defense is standard i think. i probably just fold the flop tho. I dunno. we don't know the action button will take behind us. If we call, he raises, it sucks. If we raise, he 3-bets, it sucks. If we fold, he calls, so be it.

Re: was this a bad play?
 

You are drawing here - no need to raise the turn because you will knock out the button and thus your implied odds shrink because he won't be around to pay off if you draw a flush/trips.

Definitely call the turn to keep the button in.

Re: was this a bad play?
 

[ QUOTE ]
The flop call is pretty thin since you're not closing the action. Not terrible though.

[/ QUOTE ]

Flop call is horrible.

Krishan

Re: was this a bad play?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The flop call is pretty thin since you're not closing the action. Not terrible though.

[/ QUOTE ]

Flop call is horrible.

Krishan

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok...I'll keep an open mind.

Re: was this a bad play?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The flop call is pretty thin since you're not closing the action. Not terrible though.

[/ QUOTE ]

Flop call is horrible.

Krishan

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok...I'll keep an open mind.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hand is just too marginal. You are drawing to a not clean 6 outs in a pot that is too small for 6 outs to draw where there is a preflop raiser yet to act on an ace high board. Not good.

Krishan

Re: was this a bad play?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The flop call is pretty thin since you're not closing the action. Not terrible though.

[/ QUOTE ]

Flop call is horrible.

Krishan

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok...I'll keep an open mind.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hand is just too marginal. You are drawing to a not clean 6 outs in a pot that is too small for 6 outs to draw where there is a preflop raiser yet to act on an ace high board. Not good.

Krishan

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah I wasn't thinking about the PFR being behind us. Good point we're paying 2 or worse having to fold to two pretty often.

Re: was this a bad play?
 

[ QUOTE ]

Flop call is horrible.

Krishan

[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah, don't like the turn either.

Re: was this a bad play?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The flop call is pretty thin since you're not closing the action. Not terrible though.

[/ QUOTE ]

Flop call is horrible.

Krishan

[/ QUOTE ]

three handed with the button raising every hand this is a bad call?

Re: was this a bad play?
 

flop and turn are both pretty gross. originally i thought preflop was marginal but 3handed yeah I'm down

flop for reasons krishan mentioned

turn because you have a really [censored] hand and no fold equity and you just decided you wanted to pay extra to draw? i mean he seems to have an A or better or a flush draw and most of the time you're going to get 3/2 bets out of these ranges when you hit regardless of your line, so I really don't see any benefit (if he has an A+ he will call your raise when bdfd comes in, and if he has a FD he'll bluff hte river most likely) , but you're going to get raped when he 3bets a good made hand on the turn here, and you're not guaranteed to see a showdown anyways.

Re: was this a bad play?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Flop call is horrible.

[/ QUOTE ]
I missed the memo where calling a 7:1 shot drawing to six effective outs (needting 6.7:1) is a horrible play.

You figure his 2s are almost certainly winners, and his Qs are likely to give him the best hand (even though one would bring a three-flush). He has a perfect-perfect gutshot to the nuts (which could put a three or even four-flush, and/or lead to a chop -- so it isn't worth much) and a backdoor flush draw that's almost certainly good. I think calling that six outs total (even with the dirtiness of some the draws) is a reasonable estimate.

It's a thin flop call (especially given the fact that he is not closing the action), but calling it 'horrible' is just overkill.

-K

Re: was this a bad play?
 

six outs is too generous IMO

people having 5-9 out redraws against almost all outs exect the 2s are very reasonable, flushes when you hit your straight, etc.

Re: was this a bad play?
 

I have a bigger problem with the turn raise than the flop peel. I think folding on the flop is the best play with the PFR yet to act, but I would have peeled here if I were closing the action.

On the turn, I think your raise should have some chance of folding SB, but from your description, it doesn't sound like SB is the folding type.

Re: was this a bad play?
 

I'd fold the flop. You have the SB betting into the pfr'r with you still in the hand also. He almost surely has an ace. That means your're drawing very thin. Your BD flush draw to the 3rd nuts is worth about 1.4 outs if Q hi is good enough.

Even if he only has a ten, you have only three outs at most to a Queen pair and it has a two kicker. Argh, dump this.

Turn. I'd just call. I don't think you can get SB to fold. Without fold equity, raising doesn't have enough value.