a very important 1/2 hand from Vegas last week - did I blow this?.
 

This is going to be part of a monster post, and as I'm writing about this particular week, there's a key pot I'm wondering if I didn't screw up on the turn. Here's the background, basically.

Two players - me first, then drunk guy. Drunk guy is a 20 something who can't get enough booze and feels like a fish to me. I have been taking a ton of verbal abuse from another player but drunk guy busted him and now it's just the two of us this hand - I'm in the BB. He's not mean, just sloppy and drunk and hiding a beer and young. He did talk with the two guys gunning for me though and was laughing with them a while. He could have ANYTHING, to be honest.

here's how it plays out

Our “hand” - I have 6 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] - freebie in BB – drunk limped UTG. maybe one or two more players limped in.

flop - comes 457 with two [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]'s - I just flopped the nut straight and I can't give a free card to a heart so I bet 20, he calls, anyone else in the hand folds, and it's just the two of us in the hand.

turn - 9 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] – There are now three [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]'s on the board and I think I make a blunder –

I turn scared and I check – and he checks.

river - K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] - I bet 25 - he pushes to 100 - enough to get me essentially all-in.

I do something I almost never do - I turn to him and start talking, fishing for a tell. He's drunk and he won't be quiet - LOL - I joke and ask him to show me ONE card and he smiles and shakes his head no. He says he doesn't think I made the flush or that it's a small one. He's talking about how I didn't make it and he's pretty sure of it. I've stalled too long before calling and now he knows I don't have something like AK of hearts.

Previously we had an encounter where I flopped bottom set on an A63 board and he pushed me all in - I was afraid of a bigger set and wasn’t sure – I see 6’s trip up a lot and I don’t like AA being slowplayed either. Then he said "Your kicker's no good" - I instacalled and snapped off his AK - so he's not saying things to be deceitful or create bad tells.

I think he not sure if he has me beat but he knows I don’t have a big hand cause I checked the turn and slowed down when he repopped it. I think he has an inferior one too but 27 hearts is good - LOL - He has a light smile, and I have to believe from my evaluation of his play (generally hideous at least cause he was drunk) that I am dealing with a fish, not a shark.

and I made a decision on the river - I want discussion of my turn/river play if you guys are up for it - i'll have 10 or so left on the table - he has 40 left over if he loses but I have $600 in my wallet and more spare scratch then him for sure, so a $100 rebuy is an easy option for me but it MAY be harder for him. but if I lost, I can only buy in for a max of 100 and then a drunk player who got a good piece of me (no doubt playing a hand incorrectly and hitting) had got $300-400 - way more then what I can buy in with in a 100 NL max table.

I made a decision....I don't know if it was right or wrong and I'll discuss how I made it after I get some comments.

I guess I sorta feel if I checked the turn I should have folded to the river re-raise and if I called the river-reraise, then I should have bet on the turn if I was gonna commit money to that pot.

thanks.
RB

Re: a very important 1/2 hand from Vegas last week - did I blow this?.
 

If you were afraid of the heart then you should've check/called the river, this also might induce a bluff from him which you can pick off, plus it won't make the pot huge on the river.

You mentioned that he was chatty in the AK hand when he was quite confident he had the best hand (which he didn't). In this hand he's very quiet, perhaps he's gone silent and trying not to give anything away since he could be bluffing?

Tough spot, I call.

Re: a very important 1/2 hand from Vegas last week - did I blow this?.
 

I agree with B1GFISHY'S approach -- check/call the river, but disagree with his read. I think going quiet here may mean a big hand. In the hand where he was talking he was trying to get you not to call, here he wants you to call.

As to the general theme of your post, I think that you are too hung up on metagame thinking. This is a 100 max buy in game against a drunk. How much profit are you really going to make down the road from some Shania play?

Re: a very important 1/2 hand from Vegas last week - did I blow this?.
 

If you want to fold to a raise, bet the turn and do it there. As played, I call. Sounds to me like this guy would have bet the turn had he made a lower flush, I'm guessing he backed into some two pair or something or has Ax/Kx [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. Or maybe he has nothing and is drunk.

Flop was good, next time bet the turn and if he comes over the top probably fold. If he just calls and the river blanks I'd check if you think he'll bluff at it, and bet if he's passive.

I don't know how to interpret his talk about the hand, like you I never "fish for a tell" so I would have to rely on how the hand was played out and my reads on the villian. Which is something I think you should focus on also since you rarely go fishing and could possibly misinterpret something he says purely from lack of experience. Just my two cents, not meant to be a putdown.

JKratzer

Re: a very important 1/2 hand from Vegas last week - did I blow this?.
 

there is probably other history here I'm missing - but let me just say this..

He didn't go stone cold silent - once I started talking to him he opened right up and was clear he didn't think my hand was good - so I'm fishing for a response, but it's not taking any effort - he wasn't afraid to be a chatty drunk.

Part of the reason I'm putting so much time into the hand is because I believe this session/night to be the most important night of poker I have ever played - so I'm analyzing the last hand of said session - LOL. When it's done, the total write up is over 10 Word pages...

I don't know if I should put it in B&M, Brags, NL, or Psychology - but I will say this.

If I EVER had an excuse to tilt. - EVER, it was two hrs. prior to this hand. Circumstances dictated and immediate blow-up and pissing away of all my chips, and I held it in and I was still there on my original buyin because I DIDN'T tilt.

I also have been reading Charlie Shoten's book, and he stresses how you play, not how much you win. TT said something similar to me over a pizza with MaxPower in Atlantic City, but it didn't kick in until I backed down on the booze.

If you make the right play, and you lose, but it was the right play, then that's it. You won. If I get my money in as a 95% fav. and lose on the river, this doesn't mean I'm a loser - it just means I found that 5 Percent variance but I made the right play.

So what I sorta felt and what I'm gathering from responses is that I should have bet the turn and committed my chips there instead of dragging it out, but that a crying call on the river is probably necessary. It's probably no more or less of a mistake to not call here, but it was a mistake not making a bet on the turn.

I made a mistake and now the best play, while sub-optimal, is a call.

anyone else?

RB

Re: a very important 1/2 hand from Vegas last week - did I blow this?.
 

bet the turn, call a push.

Re: a very important 1/2 hand from Vegas last week - did I blow this?.
 

"He could have ANYTHING, to be honest."

How often does this ANYTHING include two hearts?

bet turn, and feel good about getting it allin.

Re: a very important 1/2 hand from Vegas last week - did I blow this?.
 

Get it all in! This is live versus a drunk!

Re: a very important 1/2 hand from Vegas last week - did I blow this?.
 

Call.

Dumle

RESULTS
 

I decided that everything he was saying and doing suggested that he didn't want a call - I mentally reminded myself I still had profit from the previous night and I at least played the hand right when I was still in the lead. I called.

He turns over a set of 5's and I take down the pot. Everyone was blown away that I didn't have the flush.

thanks for the confirmation, guys..

pax
RB

Re: RESULTS
 

He played his hand well up until the river push, fwiw. If you made your river play on the turn, you would have played your hand well.

Re: RESULTS
 

I did get lucky in the hand...

I lucked out in the fact that the river card was a dud. There was nothing it could make or do that could threaten my straight and it couldn't make a flush for him if he was still drawing and of course, no board pair means no Full House threat.

In retrospect, that may have been the nudge that pushed me towards calling. Another scare card comes and I'm 90% sure I'd have checked again on the river and I'm certain I'd have probably folded to a river bet.

I should also mention, I didn't put him on the set. I really put him on a low flush and was just prepared to rebuy to see it. Best case scenario I thought it'd possibly be a chopped pot.

RB

Re: RESULTS
 

[ QUOTE ]
I did get lucky in the hand...

I lucked out in the fact that the river card was a dud. There was nothing it could make or do that could threaten my straight and it couldn't make a flush for him if he was still drawing and of course, no board pair means no Full House threat.

In retrospect, that may have been the nudge that pushed me towards calling. Another scare card comes and I'm 90% sure I'd have checked again on the river and I'm certain I'd have probably folded to a river bet.

I should also mention, I didn't put him on the set. I really put him on a low flush and was just prepared to rebuy to see it. Best case scenario I thought it'd possibly be a chopped pot.

RB

[/ QUOTE ]

wow, best case a split? seriously? i dont think i would have even considered folding on the river. i probably would have bet the turn anyway.

also, i wouldnt have put him on a low flush, or a set. i would have put him on a range that includes sets and low flushes. when he checks the turn i would put much less weight on the flushes. don't be so quick to rule out possibilities and put your opponent on a specific holding like that.

Re: a very important 1/2 hand from Vegas last week - did I blow this?.
 

[ QUOTE ]
I see 6’s trip up a lot

[/ QUOTE ]

i dont get this either.

Re: a very important 1/2 hand from Vegas last week - did I blow this?.
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I see 6’s trip up a lot

[/ QUOTE ]

i dont get this either.

[/ QUOTE ]
yeah, wasn't the dude drunk and bad? wtf? why are you putting him on these narrow hand ranges?

Re: a very important 1/2 hand from Vegas last week - did I blow this?.
 

I beat him into the pot.

Re: a very important 1/2 hand from Vegas last week - did I blow this?.
 

I was probably scared cause the table was too unpredictible and two hrs prior I lost an all-in when I was a 91% favorite. (possibly even 95% fav. though I doubt it) - I probably was a little gunshy for awhile after that. I didn't tilt, but I tightened up a bit - (and loosened up - it's hard to explain - I'll get it in a mega post coming soon.)

That and some of my success at this type of NL game - (the loose Vegas 1/2 NL with drunks) focuses a lot on flopping big hands and getting bluffed into and It wasn't a big big hand to me once that 3rd heart hit..

That's why I'm asking...I'm learning.

RB

Re: a very important 1/2 hand from Vegas last week - did I blow this?.
 

[ QUOTE ]
my success at this type of NL game focuses a lot on flopping big hands and getting bluffed into

[/ QUOTE ]

whiskeytown - this has become my strategy as well. it is not working. holla.

Re: a very important 1/2 hand from Vegas last week - did I blow this?.
 

it only seems to work in games with serious LAG's, bro.

In Vegas I had to do a 180 suddenly again. I had gotten used to the tight-aggressive action of tourneys where an opportunity bet can pick up the pot and it wasn't working in Vegas. Lots of calls, lots of rundowns everywhere, very few folds - you really had to have the best hand to win it in these 1/2 NL games so I played that way.

Truth is, this type of game plays perfect to the old Whiskeytown - tight and partially passive and gets paid off on big hands instead of betting/bluffing at small ones because someone at the table loves to push all in. I had a previous one that week at Paris where I got KK - flop comes Q84 - I bet and get an all in - I call and he has AQ and no help comes, but this drunk was overbetting and pushing EVERY pot with top pair. There's another blogger who was there who may write about it.

I can't say which is right/wrong or a better way of winning but in Vegas it was almost always +EV for me and I only lost big pots to suckouts and rundown. It works on most NL online games too - There - I've given away my strategy for success at cheap NL games. 10/25 are a TOTALLY NOTHER MATTER. - I'm not even confident enough in my BR or my game to play 2/5 again. I'm working on it but this is my best game and the only one I made any money in this year besides single table SNG's - my Limit game was dying and my tourney game was blown this year.

If I THOUGHT I had the best hand I almost never folded. This hand was questionable - the one I was a 91% favorite I'll call every time of the week and twice on Sun.

I dunno....I've got to play some more online NL and refine my game - I've got a lot of stuff to work on and focus thru though. Fortunately my lack of a social life gives me lots of free time [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

RB