Dr. Al, I have a question for you, and anyone else who wants to answer
 

What is it about the internet prodigies that seperate them from the rest? I consider myself a decent NL poker player with an intelligent TAG style, however, I'm flexible enough to play well shorthanded and heads up as well, when need be. I consider myself a consumate student of the game, constantly trying to improve as a player to maximize my profits. Yet, I've been wondering lately, what accounts for certain players rapid and meteoric rise to success. Guys like Prahlad, Dustin, Krisqueen, The Takeover, etc. Although, I think Prahlad used to play live before playing online, he does dominate his opposition. What do these guys have that seperate them from the rest? Do they possess something that others can acquire. Are they naturals, or is their something different about their brain chemistry that allows them to figure things out so quickly?
I may not have introduced this topic as lucidly as I would have liked to, but I think everyone here will get the gist of what I'm after and I am interested in knowing everyone's opinions. I love active debate as I feel it's critical to the learning process, however, I would like to avoid the topic that some of these big internet winners are actually not properly bankrolled. I am more interested in how they came to conquer the game so rapidly and so thoroughly.

Re: Dr. Al, I have a question for you, and anyone else who wants to answer
 

I wish I knew the answer to this. I would also like to know who it is that is losing all the massive amounts of money that these excellent players are making.

Re: Dr. Al, I have a question for you, and anyone else who wants to answer
 

Gee, I was kinda hoping more people would offer their opinions. I was also hoping Dr. Al and Feeney would chime in as well.

Re: Dr. Al, I have a question for you, and anyone else who wants to answer
 

I am also interested in this. However, i think the way you titled this was not very interesting...and maybe misleading. Why don't you repost it with a more exciting title like "What makes high-level internet players better than the rest of us?"
Maybe i'm wrong, it seems like a marketing issue.
Not to mention, probably only high level players will be able to offer many valid opinions and there arent many of them.

-g

Re: Dr. Al, I have a question for you, and anyone else who wants to an
 

The short answer I would give to your question is that yes they do possess something that others cannot acquire - their personality. They don't have a different brain chemistry that makes them figure out things more quickly than everyone else in the world.

Poker expertise, like chess, requires intelligence but not incredible intelligence. It's more a particular combination of personality characteristics, some good, some kind of bad.
They must be incredibly driven, almost monomaniacal in their devotion to whatever it is they do, in this case online poker.

They must be very aggressive naturally, this means that they don't have to force themselves to destroy people at their tables, it is pleasurable to them because the desire to dominate others egoistically is a fundamental part of their psyche.

They must be ridiculously confidant and self assured almost to the point of delusion. They must have an inner need to gamble and gamble big. And crucially they must have all these extreme characteristcs but yet not be an emotional person who lets things bother them. I wouldn't go as far as to say that they must therefore be sociopaths, but you wouldn't be going far wrong in looking in that direction for at least some insight into some of them.

This list of coincidences of personality characteristics is fairly long so it is no surprise that there are not all that many people who have them and happen to have taken up online poker. But the point I am making is that their play and success is a function of who they are, and they are fortunate that it is ideal for the game of poker.

Anyone else imitating aggressive styles but actually kind of struggling deep down because they are not really a bully, or things do actually get to them emotionally, or they are not fundamentally someone who would want to bet all they have on the turn of a card is always going to be that bit less of a player. You can shift a bit strategy wise away from your natural character, but ultimately when it comes to the crunch who you are will come out.

If you are not the above kind of person then you will never be the kind of player these guys are, but is that so bad? Would you ever really want the "gamble" of Stuey Ungar if that meant the poker ability that went along with it?

And anyway as a psychologist who has spent a lot of time doing researching and profiling Internet poker players I can tell you that many many of them are clinically addicted to playing online, and it's harder to quit the more money you're taking in!
Good luck with your poker.

Re: Dr. Al, I have a question for you, and anyone else who wants to an
 

[ QUOTE ]
The short answer I would give to your question is that yes they do possess something that others cannot acquire - their personality. They don't have a different brain chemistry that makes them figure out things more quickly than everyone else in the world.

Poker expertise, like chess, requires intelligence but not incredible intelligence. It's more a particular combination of personality characteristics, some good, some kind of bad.
They must be incredibly driven, almost monomaniacal in their devotion to whatever it is they do, in this case online poker.

They must be very aggressive naturally, this means that they don't have to force themselves to destroy people at their tables, it is pleasurable to them because the desire to dominate others egoistically is a fundamental part of their psyche.

They must be ridiculously confidant and self assured almost to the point of delusion. They must have an inner need to gamble and gamble big. And crucially they must have all these extreme characteristcs but yet not be an emotional person who lets things bother them. I wouldn't go as far as to say that they must therefore be sociopaths, but you wouldn't be going far wrong in looking in that direction for at least some insight into some of them.

This list of coincidences of personality characteristics is fairly long so it is no surprise that there are not all that many people who have them and happen to have taken up online poker. But the point I am making is that their play and success is a function of who they are, and they are fortunate that it is ideal for the game of poker.

Anyone else imitating aggressive styles but actually kind of struggling deep down because they are not really a bully, or things do actually get to them emotionally, or they are not fundamentally someone who would want to bet all they have on the turn of a card is always going to be that bit less of a player. You can shift a bit strategy wise away from your natural character, but ultimately when it comes to the crunch who you are will come out.

If you are not the above kind of person then you will never be the kind of player these guys are, but is that so bad? Would you ever really want the "gamble" of Stuey Ungar if that meant the poker ability that went along with it?

And anyway as a psychologist who has spent a lot of time doing researching and profiling Internet poker players I can tell you that many many of them are clinically addicted to playing online, and it's harder to quit the more money you're taking in!
Good luck with your poker.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a really interesting and insightful answer. It seems to go to the heart of it. You've got to figure, at the limits these guys play at, much of the difference must come from the "balls" factor. Being willing to put huge sums of money on the line in marginal situations is not the kind of thing many of us are cut out for, and probably this is a good thing. We'll see where some of these high stakes internet players are in 10-20 years. Not saying they wont be rich, many of them may be. But i would also hazard a guess that some/many of them will be dead broke.
I was thinking it would be really cool to film a documentay about the world of high stakes internet poker.

-g

Re: Dr. Al, I have a question for you, and anyone else who wants to an
 

I think another quality these guys possess is the love of risk. These guys are not afraid of losing and in fact sometimes show a complete disregard for money. TAGs are trying too hard not to lose. Many of the top players recognize that you really can't play at the biggest stakes without a certain disregard for money. When they encounter someone who is playing with scared money, they tear him apart. And these guys go thru swings like you would not believe.

Re: Dr. Al, I have a question for you, and anyone else who wants to an
 

I believe the qualities are: discernment, and technical ability.

Poker is a technical craft that also requires specific personal character traits such as courage and emotional control.

In engineering disciplines, it is common knowledge that the best are better by an order of magnitude when compared to the average. Poker is a highly technical craft much like engineering.

Poker also has this 'incomplete information" guesswork component. It turns out the very best law-enforcement detectives are better by an order of magnitude when compared to the average detective. These individuals are born with a level of discernment that allows them to read people very quickly. It is not a knack that is easily taught.

When you find an activity that you love to engage in, it is because you already have the knack. Add some real hard work and you can become a great one.

Poker is now 100% accessible to everyone worldwide via online play. In very large sample size of candidates, you are going to see some truly great ones emerge and rise quickly. That is what we are seeing. Introverts and others that may have avoided the game (or not had access to games) now can discover and even dominate this game.

One likely consequence of this is that truly astounding players are going to come out of nowwhere to dominate the game in as little as 1,2,3 years of serious high-volume play.

Re: Dr. Al, I have a question for you, and anyone else who wants to an
 

Thank you. That's a great response, and I agree with you. Do you have any insight, however, as to how they fix leaks in their game so quickly. We all make mistakes, it's inevitable, however, they seem to either minimize the damage, or plug the leaks much faster than the normal person.

Re: Dr. Al, I have a question for you, and anyone else who wants to an
 

NLTH **is** a bully game. No question. However, the part about the ego:

[ QUOTE ]
They must be very aggressive naturally, this means that they don't have to force themselves to destroy people at their tables, it is pleasurable to them because the desire to dominate others egoistically is a fundamental part of their psyche.


[/ QUOTE ]

...this I am not so sure of.

The ego is the part that separates you from the world at large. Being "separate" is not such a great idea if all of these things matter:

* Sensing and perceiving in the now
* Focusing on the moment (not past or future)
* Performing effective "as if" processing to effectively understand the motives, strategies, approaches, styles and tactics of others. (poker empathy)
* Making great laydowns

I suspect the best players have egos-- and that the greats have ego well under control at all times-- and especially when playing.

What do you think?


I'm very curious about

"...as a psychologist who has spent a lot of time doing researching and profiling Internet poker players ..."

How about a little fill-in on the goals and objectives of this work?

Re: Dr. Al, I have a question for you, and anyone else who wants to answer
 

Innate natural ability + discipline + hard work. Keys to success in just about any field, come to think of it.

Re: Dr. Al, I have a question for you, and anyone else who wants to answer
 

They play and/or study 15hrs a day. Thats all folks.

Re: Dr. Al, I have a question for you, and anyone else who wants to answer
 

<Yet, I've been wondering lately, what accounts for certain players rapid and meteoric rise to success.>

meteoric rise to success often isnt as meteoric as it seems to be.

If it is, it is usually fueled by a huge tankfull of Luck.

especially in the huge tournament fields.

Re: Dr. Al, I have a question for you, and anyone else who wants to an
 

[ QUOTE ]
They play and/or study 15hrs a day. Thats all folks.

[/ QUOTE ]

And who says that poker isn't get rich quick!!! Baw, I say!

Re: Dr. Al, I have a question for you, and anyone else who wants to an
 

I agree with the general ideas about confidence and balls, etc etc.

But I also wanted to point out this scenario:

100k poker-players with an equal amount of skills and all of them played the same amount and all decided to take a 'shot' at the next level every once in awhile...and then maybe move up again if they are fortunate to succeed there...etc etc.
Well, you would likely have a handful of these 'equal strength' players catch the right cards at the perfect times and move their way up higher and higher.

I think that neverwin thinks on a level that is a step or two above most of us (or his opponents) but, you also have to consider that there is a great deal of luck involved.


Just like if you ran a simulation of the WSOP main-event 1 million times, you would have some nobody come from out of nowhere playing in his first live-event and win the thing just by being TOO aggressive and catching good cards at the right times.


But the topic of what makes this GREAT poker-players tick is an interesting one.
ggbman made a post of his success in poker (in the general forum). Here's an 18 year old kid who's been playing poker for a couple years and has had terrific success. He's articulate and seeme extremely mature in his approach to poker.

I think in cases like ggbman and neverwin and others it's not JUST a case of drive and studying and courage to push the big money around....there's also a very basic element that some people are simply smarter than others too.

Re: Dr. Al, I have a question for you, and anyone else who wants to an
 

[ QUOTE ]
I agree with the general ideas about confidence and balls, etc etc.

But I also wanted to point out this scenario:

100k poker-players with an equal amount of skills and all of them played the same amount and all decided to take a 'shot' at the next level every once in awhile...and then maybe move up again if they are fortunate to succeed there...etc etc.
Well, you would likely have a handful of these 'equal strength' players catch the right cards at the perfect times and move their way up higher and higher.

I think that neverwin thinks on a level that is a step or two above most of us (or his opponents) but, you also have to consider that there is a great deal of luck involved.


Just like if you ran a simulation of the WSOP main-event 1 million times, you would have some nobody come from out of nowhere playing in his first live-event and win the thing just by being TOO aggressive and catching good cards at the right times.


But the topic of what makes this GREAT poker-players tick is an interesting one.
ggbman made a post of his success in poker (in the general forum). Here's an 18 year old kid who's been playing poker for a couple years and has had terrific success. He's articulate and seeme extremely mature in his approach to poker.

I think in cases like ggbman and neverwin and others it's not JUST a case of drive and studying and courage to push the big money around....there's also a very basic element that some people are simply smarter than others too.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think that MicroBob hit on it pretty clean here. It isn't that these players are so much better than the rest of us at birth. There is a ton of luck. Look at Greg Raymer. Sure he was a great player etc before, but he never would have had the year he had last year had it not been for his WSOP win. He is now a bonafide top tournament player and well respected by all. This would not be the case if he hadn't combined his skill (the same level of which was likely held by many in that same 2004 event) with a considerable amount of luck to win that ME. If others in that crowd would have won instead, possibly they would now have the backing and ability to be on his stage.

The same goes for online play. Many top internet players built their rolls through improbable large cashes. Look at ZeeJustin and his 6 figure cash, who knows what he'll be able to accomplish with a roll like that. If he had not had the cash, maybe the things to follow wouldn't have happened.

A big MTT win can be a huge confidence booster, networking opportunity and buffer to not need money and focus on poker. These things lead to further success. Without the requisite luck to get that first big cash, many players likely are not getting their big break.

Re: Dr. Al, I have a question for you, and anyone else who wants to answer
 

Sorry, but I really don't know what separates them from the rest of us. As David once said, some poker greats are just "freaks" in the same sense that Michael Jordan and Tiger Woods are "freaks." They have a gift that they probably can't explain themselves, and I certainly can't explain it either.

Regards,

Al

Re: Dr. Al, I have a question for you, and anyone else who wants to answer
 

Dr. Al,
I was so excited to see you respond to my post. I tried to email you this question but the email didn't go through so I decided to post it here and get others' opinions as well. Is there any way to explain their ability to reduce their mistakes in such a quick manner or are their swings to great for an outsider to adequately gague their mistakes?

Re: Dr. Al, I have a question for you, and anyone else who wants to an
 

No. It's really just time and work. I'm sure a lot of these guys are smart too, but anyone who plays and studies 15hrs a day is going to make it to the 20/40 at least. Now if you're not very smart maybe you may get stuck here, and if you're only mildly intelligent you may never be able to play higher than 30/60. It probably takes some genius, work/study ethic, and luckboxing to win higher than that.

Everyone on this forum is in love with the concept of extremely gifted people, but the one thing all of the top people here DO have in common is how much they play poker, study poker, and run hot. If you're smart youre going to move up faster and have a greater chance of being able to beat the harder games, but as long as you don't suffer from a learning disorder you can do very well as long as you put in the hours. Anyone who thinks they're going to be crushing 50/100NL playing/studying 12hrs a week needs to be kicked in the face. Almost no amount of genius and only insane luck is going to get them there.

Intelligence is only the deciding factor when both people work as hard.

Re: Dr. Al, I have a question for you, and anyone else who wants to answer
 

I'm sorry that your email did not go through. I have terrible problems with emails, despite having a new, powerful computer and DSL. My email address is alannschoonmaker@hotmail.com.

The critical element in correcting mistakes is ruthless objectivity. You must be willing to:
1. Accept that you have made a mistake.
2. Try to understand WHY you made it.

Most people are poor at both. Partly because poker's feedback is confusing, they don't recognize their own mistakes. Even if they do recognize them, they may not think of the psychological factors that caused them to make these mistakes.

Because almost everyone lacks objectivity about himself, develop relationships with friends who will tell you about your mistakes -- even when you don't want to hear the truth.

The more you don't want to hear something, the more you need to hear it.

I've written several articles for the 2+2 internet magazine on denial. You may find them useful.

Regards,

Al

Re: Dr. Al, I have a question for you, and anyone else who wants to an
 

[ QUOTE ]
Innate natural ability + discipline + hard work. Keys to success in just about any field, come to think of it.

[/ QUOTE ] dr. al you said micheal jordan was a freak, and well he was but its not to say he didnt work on his shot countless number of hours. he didnt come out of the womb hitting threes and jumping over houses. the quote is pretty on point in my opionion

Re: Dr. Al, I have a question for you, and anyone else who wants to an
 

This is a simple question. Lots of intelligence and lots of hard work, at both studying and playing.

If you want to be successful at anything, you usually need to be semi-obsessive at it.

Re: Dr. Al, I have a question for you, Does any one else wonder...
 

... why winning yet mediocre B&M players make 5x more money
per hand, than online prodigies, While still tipping, paying a higher rake and no bonuses, rake back, ect...

And no one here crows about their successes?

Re: Dr. Al, I have a question for you, and anyone else who wants to answer
 

Certain players seem to have a very special gift that I recognize but am unable to pin down.

This gift is a natural ability to sense the weaknesses in their opponent's game and then shift their own style to exploit those weaknesses. The consequences of this ability are:

1. Otherwise talented opponents make an unnatural number of mistakes.

2. These mistakes and the constant stream of uncomfortable situations often trigger loss of confidence and even tilt in the victim.

3. Hero is rarely put to the full test from a technical perspective. Everything becomes about the victim and his problems. In this fashion the Hero protects the technical leaks in his own game.

4. The gifted one is often perceived as lucky because his opponents make excessive mistakes while his own play doesn't stand up to paper analysis. Of course the victim's discomfort is not on the paper.

I've seen this phenomena at the chess table many times and it is very disconcerting. Players whose results far exceed the objective quality of their moves. Former world champion Emmanual Lasker was famous for this gift.

I've also seen it playing bridge. Michael Cappelletti Sr. (yes, the well-known poker author is also a bridge expert) is uncanny at this. He always knows the right time to do the "wrong" thing.

A major difference between poker and bridge or chess is that this talent seems to be much more powerful at poker. Technically inferior bridge and chess experts do not exist. Yet it is very clear from reading these forums that many quite successful poker players have really serious leaks in their games. Clearly other factors are compensating in a major way.

Now I am not saying that the true stars of poker are leaking all over the place. But given the apparent ability of the gift to overcome major shortcomings in mediocre players, it may well be that it is absolutely devastating in the hands of someone who doesn't have these technical weaknesses to overcome. The lore of poker is full of larger-than-life players who could routinely dominate tables. Mere technical skill doesn't explain this, especially at limit.

Re: What makes an internet poker prodigy so successful?
 

I'll say it has something to do with an ability to focus and identify the main point; and then a willingness to present it to others and accept the result.