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If you kill your own clone
...have you committed murder? Discuss.
I say no. It would be no different than cutting your fingernails. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img] |
Re: If you kill your own clone
If the clone is alive, then ending it's life would be murder.
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Re: If you kill your own clone
is killing your indentical twin murder? obviously, killing your clone is no different biologicaly.
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Re: If you kill your own clone
This is a dumb thread. It would be murder. He/She is alive, and you're killing it.
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Re: If you kill your own clone
What? Of course it's murder. He's a different person, just with the same DNA. How is this even a question?
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Re: If you kill your own clone
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[censored] notified [censored] notified In a moment you will be automatically returned to the forum. [/ QUOTE ] I win! |
Re: If you kill your own clone
reminds me of the age old steven colbert question:
"If you have sex with your own clone, is it gay sex or masturbation?" |
Re: If you kill your own clone
Is the clone growing out of the side of your head or something? If not, I'll go with it being a murder/death/kill
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Re: If you kill your own clone
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...have you committed murder? Discuss. I say no. It would be no different than cutting your fingernails. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img] [/ QUOTE ] A clone is living being. It is murder. |
Re: If you kill your own clone
Im all for making clones and killing them for organs...and im not even kiddin...its not murder - and yes now everyones gonna go off on me and what a moron i am...lets go...
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Re: If you kill your own clone
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is killing your indentical twin murder? obviously, killing your clone is no different biologicaly. [/ QUOTE ] This is fact, but i doubt enough people know it to make it obvious. |
Re: If you kill your own clone
How about if you kill a moran, is that murder?
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Re: If you kill your own clone
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Im all for making clones and killing them for organs...and im not even kiddin...its not murder - and yes now everyones gonna go off on me and what a moron i am...lets go... [/ QUOTE ] I am not going to go off on you because scientifically and medically it would be great, but it is just morally wrong. |
Re: If you kill your own clone
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Im all for making clones and killing them for organs...and im not even kiddin...its not murder - and yes now everyones gonna go off on me and what a moron i am...lets go... [/ QUOTE ] Okay. Against my better judgment, I'll bite. How in the hell is it not murder? Are you under the impression that the clone can't feel or think the exact same as you? |
Re: If you kill your own clone
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How about if you kill a moran, is that murder? [/ QUOTE ] No its community service. |
Re: If you kill your own clone
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Im all for making clones and killing them for organs...and im not even kiddin...its not murder - and yes now everyones gonna go off on me and what a moron i am...lets go... [/ QUOTE ] Even if you don't think (for who knows what reasons) that cloned humans would be viable "humans", this seems pretty stupid considering we could just clone organs without the "human" being surrounding them. GoT |
Re: If you kill your own clone
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...have you committed murder? Discuss. I say no. It would be no different than cutting your fingernails. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img] [/ QUOTE ] but can your fingernails think, feel, respirate, procreate, etc |
Re: If you kill your own clone
What if your clone decided you should die? Would he/she be commiting murder? Maybe it would be justifiable homicide?
He/she could always plead temporary insanity. He/she was confused as to who(m) was who(m) and decided that he/she was the original and he/she'd made a mistake and was only setting about rectifying the error. Or, in the confusion of "who's who," he/she just went postal and whacked you. |
Re: If you kill your own clone
This thread is useless. The "clone vs. clone" issue was resolved without bloodshed in Star Trek: The Next Generation.
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Re: If you kill your own clone
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[ QUOTE ] Im all for making clones and killing them for organs...and im not even kiddin...its not murder - and yes now everyones gonna go off on me and what a moron i am...lets go... [/ QUOTE ] I am not going to go off on you because scientifically and medically it would be great, but it is just morally wrong. [/ QUOTE ] i used to hold this stances as well...but then i got diagnosed with a terminal liver condition - this changed my whole outlook on the situation. If i was allowed to clone a person or organ from my own DNA/tissues i would see no moral issue with it being used to save my life or the lives of others. |
Re: If you kill your own clone
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Re: If you kill your own clone
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Im all for making clones and killing them for organs...and im not even kiddin...its not murder - and yes now everyones gonna go off on me and what a moron i am...lets go... [/ QUOTE ] I am not going to go off on you because scientifically and medically it would be great, but it is just morally wrong. [/ QUOTE ] i used to hold this stances as well...but then i got diagnosed with a terminal liver condition - this changed my whole outlook on the situation. If i was allowed to clone a person or organ from my own DNA/tissues i would see no moral issue with it being used to save my life or the lives of others. [/ QUOTE ] Organ, yes, Human, no...I can't do that. |
Re: If you kill your own clone
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[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Im all for making clones and killing them for organs...and im not even kiddin...its not murder - and yes now everyones gonna go off on me and what a moron i am...lets go... [/ QUOTE ] I am not going to go off on you because scientifically and medically it would be great, but it is just morally wrong. [/ QUOTE ] i used to hold this stances as well...but then i got diagnosed with a terminal liver condition - this changed my whole outlook on the situation. If i was allowed to clone a person or organ from my own DNA/tissues i would see no moral issue with it being used to save my life or the lives of others. [/ QUOTE ] It'd be cheaper just to kill one of your relatives and use their organs. |
Re: If you kill your own clone
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[ QUOTE ] Im all for making clones and killing them for organs...and im not even kiddin...its not murder - and yes now everyones gonna go off on me and what a moron i am...lets go... [/ QUOTE ] Even if you don't think (for who knows what reasons) that cloned humans would be viable "humans", this seems pretty stupid considering we could just clone organs without the "human" being surrounding them. GoT [/ QUOTE ] i group this type of cloning in with organ cloning b/c its all cloning and most groups are totally against all kinds no matter what its use, even stem cells. I wrote my thesis on stem cells so im real familiar with the area, but that doesnt change that i would oppose full clones being created and thier various organs harvested...it might seem cold to most of u....but i have endless reasons that are too numerous to type here tonight |
Re: If you kill your own clone
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[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Im all for making clones and killing them for organs...and im not even kiddin...its not murder - and yes now everyones gonna go off on me and what a moron i am...lets go... [/ QUOTE ] I am not going to go off on you because scientifically and medically it would be great, but it is just morally wrong. [/ QUOTE ] i used to hold this stances as well...but then i got diagnosed with a terminal liver condition - this changed my whole outlook on the situation. If i was allowed to clone a person or organ from my own DNA/tissues i would see no moral issue with it being used to save my life or the lives of others. [/ QUOTE ] I'll save the argument and just say clone the liver. Hell, clone a whole person, missing his head. Nobody dies, everybody wins. |
Re: If you kill your own clone
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[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Im all for making clones and killing them for organs...and im not even kiddin...its not murder - and yes now everyones gonna go off on me and what a moron i am...lets go... [/ QUOTE ] I am not going to go off on you because scientifically and medically it would be great, but it is just morally wrong. [/ QUOTE ] i used to hold this stances as well...but then i got diagnosed with a terminal liver condition - this changed my whole outlook on the situation. If i was allowed to clone a person or organ from my own DNA/tissues i would see no moral issue with it being used to save my life or the lives of others. [/ QUOTE ] It'd be cheaper just to kill one of your relatives and use their organs. [/ QUOTE ] well thats technically murder [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img] wont argue definitions right now...have too much to do |
Re: If you kill your own clone
killing your twin and killing your clone is not the same thing biologically or in any other manner. you are both morons [ QUOTE ]
This is fact, but i doubt enough people know it to make it obvious. [/ QUOTE ] |
Re: Peachy\'s diagnosis
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...i used to hold this stances as well...but then i got diagnosed with a terminal liver condition... [/ QUOTE ] Peachy, I'm so sorry to read this. I can see how, in your shoes, I'd think the same way. God bless, and g/l [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img] |
Re: If you kill your own clone
Quick, kill us both, while there's still time!
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Re: If you kill your own clone
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killing your twin and killing your clone is not the same thing biologically or in any other manner. you are both morons [/ QUOTE ] how is it not? two individual people, same DNA... |
Re: If you kill your own clone
This question isnt really a debate in itself, its really just some quibling over the language we use to describe certain things.
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Re: If you kill your own clone
identical twins do not have the same DNA, nor would you and your clone. present in all organisms is a certain amount of genetic drift that causes some to be different than others. Genes also change throughout the course of your lifetime. Hence the differences, non-environmental, that can be seen in "identical twins." In addition, cloning as we know it today would not produce someone who looked exactly like you, in fact it is far more likely that they would be decidedly different in many ways than it is they would be very much like you in the those same ways.
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Re: If you kill your own clone
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identical twins do not have the same DNA, nor would you and your clone. present in all organisms is a certain amount of genetic drift that causes some to be different than others. Genes also change throughout the course of your lifetime. Hence the differences, non-environmental, that can be seen in "identical twins." In addition, cloning as we know it today would not produce someone who looked exactly like you, in fact it is far more likely that they would be decidedly different in many ways than it is they would be very much like you in the those same ways. [/ QUOTE ] Serious question because you seem to know more than most about cloning. Since we've not openly done human cloning (to the best of my knowledge), why do you say the clone would not be an identical twin? Is it the, "as we know it today," part of your statement? I'm very interested in the whole subject, for a variety of reasons. TY |
Re: If you kill your own clone
Something that people don't realize is that cloning has been going on in laboratories for a lot longer than when Dolly first came on the scene courtesy of Wilmut and Co. The large difference is that it was done with bacteria and other microorganisms, nothing on a scale so large as a sheep.
What came along with Dolly, and the reason it was such a significant breakthrough, is of course that sheep are fairly large mammals and if you can do it in one of them, you could almost certainly do it in a human too right? But the researchers responsible for Dolly took years and years to do it with a whole bunch of tries (for some reason the number 40 comes to mind but I can't recall for sure). A "clone" is an exact (almost) genetic replica, meaning that is has the same chromosomes, genes, codons, nitrogenous base sequence, etc. Genes code for proteins, which are really responsible for everything that happens in the body in one way or another. Each gene codes for a protein which has its own specific structure, which in turn is directly related to its structure. For example, people with Cystic Fibrosis have a genetic mutation which does not allow them to produce a functional protein that is responsible for transporting chloride ions across plasma membranes. Cl- ions are very important in the movement of water going across the membrane, and without them water and other solutes tend to stay within the cell when they should be transported out. Without the water, mucus cannot be washed away and instead builds up, which is why people with CF have problems have such large pulmonary problems. So lets you had CF and you were cloned. Now your clone has to go through a whole life cycle (infancy, toddler, child, pre-adolescent, teenager, young adult, adult) before he will be anything even like you. He will have "inherited" the same alleles for the gene that codes for CF function as you. But he may have CF much worse than you. He may die at the age of 5 from it. He may never have serious problems and be able to exist on some simple meds alone. His symptoms may also be very similar to your own. Within the genome exist genes known as transposons, or in layman's terms, "jumping genes." They bounce around throughout the genome, often copying themselves in random positions or sometimes moving to completely new spots. Also, the protein responsible for DNA replication, RNA Polymerase III, makes an error every 10*8 nitrogenous base, in many cases causing a point mutation that will change an amino acid, the monomeric unit of proteins. A single AA change can cause a protein to function differently, or even to lose function completely. Sickle cell anemia is one example of this, where a Valine AA residue is found in normal hemoglobin while a Glutamine AA residue replaces it in those who have the sickle trait (though, mind you, hemoglobin is inherited and is absurdly unlikely to change during your lifetime, but its the idea that counts). All of this said, when your liver finally kicks it at the age of 68 and X number of scotches on the rocks, even if you have been cloned there is no assurance that your clone will be able to give you a transplant. There is also a very slim chance that your clone will have worked successfully on teh first try, not to mention the surrogate mother that would have to birth it. I don't know what goes on in the dark recesses of the world, but even when I search the depths of my imagination, it is hard for me to fathom that a human has been successfully cloned. There are just too many variables working against its happening. That said, we are very much a product of our environment, and even if it was successful, the chance of the clone being like its original is miniscule at best. |
Re: If you kill your own clone
Twins are not clones.
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Re: If you kill your own clone
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I'll go with it being a murder/death/kill [/ QUOTE ] awesome |
Re: If you kill your own clone
Good point. So, might not clones killing each other off be Darwinian?
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Re: If you kill your own clone
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Good point. So, might not clones killing each other off be Darwinian? [/ QUOTE ] Not really. Destroying anything with which you share a significant proportion of active DNA has enourmous evolutionary pressures against it (how long would a gene last if there was some +ve desire to kill your children, for example?) - I qualify that so that where there are exceptions to this, they ultimately lead to more of your dna getting to the next generation, not less (hence mothers may kill runts, so the rest have better survival changes). But this circumstances described here is so weird and out of the natural order, thinking in terms of evolution is inappropriate anyway. |
Re: If you kill your own clone
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But this circumstances described here is so weird and out of the natural order, thinking in terms of evolution is inappropriate anyway. [/ QUOTE ] Not if the next step in human evolution is controlling it ourselves. Of course, this begs the question of the definition of evolution, or if we will reach a point where "natural" evolution ceases to be. I agree this is all very weird, which makes it interesting. Topics like this can make you question the more mundane, and think about simpler things in new ways. |
Re: If you kill your own clone
I agree.
One aside that isn't central, but may be of interest to those casual browers that don't know the ins and outs of evolutionary theory is that - in fact - species do self-select in the subset of evolutionary theory called 'sexual selection'. Including humans. For example, some traits do not exist for the survival of the species, but for the survival of the gene. If females find something attractive about a male that isn't specific to survival (strength is a benefit for survival for example, but bright tail feathers may be the opposite!), then they'll breed anyway, and that thing will propogate. And here's the rub - that thing becomes itself a evolutionary pressure, for by being attractive, it helps itself pass to the next generation - and so on and on. This is all an aside to the main thread, I'd emphasise. But may give a hint of what 'self-evolution' brings. Personally, I find that sort of thing sinister (nazis etc), as it will emphasise the control and reduction of the gene pool to 'desirable' traits, whilst I believe the future of humankind must be in the widest possible genetic diversity. |
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