30-60 hand - mike l thinks I blew one street
 

And I now agree with him. 30-60. UTG open raises. He's done this with hands like JTo and A9o in the exact same spot. Folded to cranky local in MP who angrily 3-bets. This is not a calm "I have kings so this is my normal 3-bet", this is a "I'm sick of this guy so I'm isolating" 3-bet. Button, a total lag who slowplays his big hands preflop now 4-bets. SB folds. I consider capping from the BB with 6h6d, but decide to smoothcall and checkraise any favorable flop. UTG and MP both call. 4 to the flop for 17sbs.

Flop: 3h 4h 8d. Checked to button who bets, I checkraise, UTG and MP both disgustedly fold, button calls.

Turn: Ts. I bet, button calls.

River: 8h. I bet.

Re: 30-60 hand - mike l thinks I blew one street
 

I'm not sure where mike isn't happy with you, but even though this is presumably short-handed, I'm not thrilled with the calling the 4-bet out of the big blind with 6's.

I like how you check-raised the flop, given that, though, maybe check the turn, hoping for the check-through, and then bet out at the river due to "hitting your flush"?

Barron Vangor Toth
www.BarronVangorToth.com

Re: 30-60 hand - mike l thinks I blew one street
 

Preflop and flop are standard.

So its gotta be the turn or river.

Since the button is a lag is it likely he will bet the turn with overs? If so then you should have been a badass and checkraised the turn too.

Re: 30-60 hand - mike l thinks I blew one street
 

Not shorthanded, it was a full 10-handed table. Just a little juiced up.

Re: 30-60 hand - mike l thinks I blew one street
 

[ QUOTE ]
Just a little juiced up.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ye of understatements.

Verily juiced up, I reckon.

Even so -- and someone called this standard pre-flop above? -- this seems a bit ... too much.

Barron Vangor Toth
www.BarronVangorToth.com

Re: 30-60 hand - mike l thinks I blew one street
 

It's hard for me to believe you misplayed the flop or turn here. If you are gonna cold you must have thought there was at least a reasonable chance you had the best, or the only pair, so your flop checkraise seems right. There is no way you can check the turn here. The pot is big, you didnt get three bet on the flop, and he isnt getting a free card. On the river I would be pretty I had the best hand, but I'm not positve betting is correct. First he might actaully check some better hands behind depending on how much he respects you and your image at the time. Second, if his hand is really that random, he might not have a big ace enough of the time for betting to be correct. Maybe you can induce a desperation bluff from some silly overcard holding. So I'm not sure but I'm pretty sure you "mistake" was either preflop or on the river. Hope you won.

Re: 30-60 hand - mike l thinks I blew one street
 

a check-raise on the turn would've been hot, but maybe not worth doing in case he woke up with a ten. is mike advocating a river check-raise once you have full information?

interesting hand. this is how i learn from this forum. you can pretty accurately put your three opponents on six overcards, and therefore you have great odds with your 66. your post-flop line relied on the predictable button bet and thinned the field out for a measly 2 sb's.

Re: 30-60 hand - mike l thinks I blew one street
 

My guess is the river, LAG will bluff with a lot of hands that can't call, so check the river and hope to induce a bluff.

Re: 30-60 hand - mike l thinks I blew one street
 

[ QUOTE ]
My guess is the river, LAG will bluff with a lot of hands that can't call, so check the river and hope to induce a bluff.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, that's it. And since he slowplays his big hands, he can't really even have a big ace to call with. So checking to induce is clearly the right play.

Re: 30-60 hand - mike l thinks I blew one street
 

I really dont like this turn checkraise stuff. I mean is this guy that much of a moron to bet the turn with a worse hand? You called 3 cold out of the BB and then checkraised the flop in a 4 way pot. The turn is kind of a brick, could he really think he might take it down with a bet here? I guess it could be right agaist certain opponents but he would have to be very likely to bet when when checked to. Anyhow, intersting hand. The more I think about it, my guess is Mike l. wanted to you to check the river, perhaps with the intention of putting in 160 dollars in, but I'm not sure. Only you know how often he is to put in a bet with ace high and also pay off a checkraise with it on the end.

Re: 30-60 hand - mike l thinks I blew one street
 

Preflop?

Based on some reasonable inferences about your opponents' likely range of hands, I get you as having something like 23-24% hot-and-cold equity here against three opponents. You are getting a small overlay from your blind money and your hand reading skills might do a lot to make up for being out of position, but I think you might be overrating your position some; even if you have the best pair before the flop, you're playing dodgeball against lots of overcards and potential draws, and in a pot this large, it's likely to be a 4- or 5-card hand.

I think that, if you're going to play the hand, it's best to get that cap in right away. First of all, there's a good chance that UTG folds, which will increase your equity matierally (by 6-7%, according to my recknoning). Secondly, you put a lot of pressure on your opponents when they miss, which should allow you to pick up more pots after the flop.

I recognize that a good player calling three cold is pretty scary all on its own, but I think the cap is your highest EV play, especially as, if one of your opponents somehow has emerged with a big hand, it's very likely to get capped anyway.

Re: 30-60 hand - mike l thinks I blew one street
 

"if one of your opponents somehow has emerged with a big hand, it's very likely to get capped anyway. "

But don't I want to give *them* the opportunity to cap so I at least know I'm against a real hand? I think so. The other thing is that I thought (maybe incorrectly) that UTG was bad enough that he wasn't capable of folding, even for 3-more.

Re: 30-60 hand - mike l thinks I blew one street
 

Hi Clarkmeister,

In the blocks with 66, your hand is too weak to call the cap. I see that you are reading the players as being weaker than normal, but the button may well be capping with a higher pair, even if it's only 88, and you'll have a hard time making him fold. Worse, with the lag on your right, you'll fold incorrectly often. Muck it.

If your hand were stronger but not quite playable, like TT, then I'd think your call was OK. Note that TT dominates much more of the crap UTG is raising and the button is capping than 66 does.

On the river, when the scare card hits, it might be better to check and call. A laggy button may bet more hands than he'll call with, and you have to call a raise if he did improve (unlikely, given his passive play so far).

I don't think the river is clear though. Make a note of what this LAG will play this passively if you get to see his hand. I'm guessing it's something extremely weak that might not be good (in his mind) even if he catches. Maybe QJc. He's wants to fold and is only calling because the pot is huge. Check and let him make the desperation stab with that crap.


Eric

Re: 30-60 hand - mike l thinks I blew one street
 

[ QUOTE ]
Preflop and flop are standard.

[/ QUOTE ]

You think calling 3 cold with 66 is standard? I don't. This would be a turbo-super-easy muck without player reads. Now, we're given a read that the players involved may be weaker than normal, but is this enough to take a no brainer instafold and turn it into a call? Definitely not standard.

Note that UTG can still have aces, EP may be acting or just pissed that he feels obligated to 3-bet 99, the LAG may have decided to 4-bet 77, etc.


Good luck.
Eric

Re: 30-60 hand - mike l thinks I blew one street
 

[ QUOTE ]
I like how you check-raised the flop, given that, though, maybe check the turn, hoping for the check-through, and then bet out at the river due to "hitting your flush"?

[/ QUOTE ]

Huh? Do you really think this is the best play, or are you just trying to make up a play that maybe somebody else thinks is the best play so you can be in agreement with them? You know, it is possible that, even though two players seem to have agreed that exactly one street was misplayed, there were zero or even two misplayed streets.

Anyways, this convoluted flush draw representation is ridiculous. There's no way a LAG is folding a pair for one bet in a huge pot.


Good luck.
Eric

Re: 30-60 hand - mike l thinks I blew one street
 

I really don't understand why it is suddenly OK to play a small pair in a 4 way pot for 3 bets out of position on purpose. Did I miss a memo?

Re: 30-60 hand - mike l thinks I blew one street
 

[ QUOTE ]
I really don't understand why it is suddenly OK to play a small pair in a 4 way pot for 3 bets out of position on purpose. Did I miss a memo?

[/ QUOTE ]

I must've missed the original memo that said that it wasn't ok.

I thought there was a huge chance I had the best hand preflop. Given that, I think folding is absurd. I considered capping, but decided that there were informational and playing advantages to smoothcalling. Plus, smoothcalling 3 looks damn scary to my opponents and allowed me to overrepresent my hand here.

Re: 30-60 hand - mike l thinks I blew one street
 

I have a lot to learn about this game.

Re: 30-60 hand - mike l thinks I blew one street
 

cool should be a good thread. what's interesting is the rest of the hand is expertly played, and i think the more it gets discussed the more obvious it will be that the one bad street is really really -EV.

one question that will come up is what would you do if he raises the turn. i think the answer is call down, but im almost never satisfied with that line.

Re: 30-60 hand - mike l thinks I blew one street
 

At first glance I thought checking the river to induce a bluff was better. Upon further reflection I've decided that betting is better.

Re: 30-60 hand - mike l thinks I blew one street
 

Do you give it up if you're 3-bet on the flop by any of the players?

Re: 30-60 hand - mike l thinks I blew one street
 

You have 13 bets strange preflop assuming no cap behind you. Conventional wisdom is that you need to believe that you can make another 17 bets postflop to make the preflop call with 66 worthwhile.

I think it's a bad call preflop but I make it all the time 'cause I absolute couldn't stand folding if a 6 happens to hit the flop...heh..the money I will lose on subsequent hands while steaming dwarfs the error made by calling with 66 preflop.

That's just me but I do think that viewed rationally, the 66 preflop call is poor.

I do note Clark's coment that his opponents are looser than normal. I think that this makes calling 3 more bets preflop with 66 a *MORE* dicey proposition. If you knew that your opponents had big pairs or big cards, you would be better off as (a) you could get lots of action if you flop a set and they have big pairs or (b) you are more likely to win the pot even without a set on benign looking flops like the one that came down.

But when you have loose opponents who could have just about anything, your chances of winning on benign looking flops are reduced and you may in fact face serious reverse implied odds beause you now end up paying off some clown on a 832 flop because he 4 bet preflop with 98 offsuit.

Plus, these loose guys are more likely to stick around right up to the river.

The absence of a big pair also garners you less action if you do flop a set.

Overall, I don't like the preflop call but I would make it.

I wouldn't cap preflop as suggested by Nate for the reasons given by Clark. That is, it would be useful to find out if guys behind me have a hand big enough to cap preflop.

On the river, it's not an error either way. Some guys might make a desperation bluff on the river if you check but then again the river card is a horrible one from his perspective as the flush got there and the top card on the flop paired. Plus, if he has Ace high, he is not bluffing but may very well call a river bet on the "it's a big pot" line of thinking.

Overall: I consider the river play to be six of one and half a dozen of the other.

Re: 30-60 hand - mike l thinks I blew one street
 

lets see what stage are you in now. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

maybe fold before the flop? maybe not. but dont cap as to see if they do. that helps some with later decisions. but also doesnt scare them as much, which always helps in big pots.

flop and turn right on.

river is a must bet. he aint gonna bluff after all that. but who knows what might call you. plus you would rather not show this hand if possible.

stop hanging around with mike you are starting to go nuts.

Re: 30-60 hand - mike l thinks I blew one street
 

Well Ray, the hands where I just call down like Tommy aren't nearly as interesting to post. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Here's one from the 40-80 the other day:

Super duper uber passive guy open raises in the CO, I fold on the button with KJs.

Better?

Re: 30-60 hand - mike l thinks I blew one street
 

What kind of control do you have over your opponents? Will you be able to read them for a bigger pair if the flop comes J-high? Will you be able to confidently fold or 3-bet if the flop comes rags? Are they the type to assume their overcards are good (ie will UTG call 2 bets on the flop with KJ, assuming he has 6 outs?). Will you get them to spray when you flop a set and they flop TPGK? I feel like this play is probably close to having set value (needing an extra 4.5 SB by 3 or 4 more bets, so 14 or 18 SB postflop). it reminds me of a close turn call where you have 2 outs to a winner. you don't have to have the best hand all the time, just enough to bridge the gap between the required implied odds for a set and actual assumed implied odds. I'd be lying if I said I completely understood it completely, but hopefully by the time the thread dies I will

the river decision is interesting too. he'll almost certainly call with a hand like A7s, and probably even with KQ. some have said even a LAG won't bet after all that action, but with Q high, I'd imagine it'd be correct, or at least close, to take a stab, with you having to fold under 10% of the time for it to be correct.

Results
 

Final board [3h4h8d] Ts 8h. I bet, button raised, I called quickly. Button tabled 5h7h for the flush and the winner.

Talking with mike, I said that I liked the bet because he'd call me with any small pair, but there weren't many of those available. I now think checking to induce was the better play here. I wasn't scared of the flush since I figured he'd have 3-bet the flop or bluff raised the turn with a flush draw, but that just goes to show what I know.......

Re: 30-60 hand - mike l thinks I blew one street
 

"What kind of control do you have over your opponents?"

I don't know how this will answer your question, but UTG was LAG preflop and very very passive postflop (needs TPGK to bet the flop, 2 pair or better to make noise on the turn), and not that loose postflop. MP was what I would call a typical "trying to play well" local semi-pro who kind of knows how to play but is eminently readable. Button was your run of the mill LAG who paid far more attention than others gave him credit for, but was still a LAG nonetheless.

Re: 30-60 hand - mike l thinks I blew one street
 

No joke, this is kinda BS. If anyone else posted that they called 3 cold from the BB w/ 66 they'd be megaflamed just like I'm about to be for posting this. What do you lose by folding your hand? Nothing.

Okay sorry to interrupt the fellating but it had to be said.

Re: 30-60 hand - mike l thinks I blew one street
 

Shouldn't you be in OOT posting something about whether or not you've been laid recently?

Re: 30-60 hand - mike l thinks I blew one street
 

[censored] you're right..carry on then.

Re: 30-60 hand - mike l thinks I blew one street
 

hey buddy, ever get 125th in the '04 wsop?

Re: 30-60 hand - mike l thinks I blew one street
 

Barron you actually wrote in your post...

>>>I like how you check-raised the flop, given that, though, maybe check the turn, hoping for the check-through, and then bet out at the river due to "hitting your flush"?<<<

How does this make any sense at all? This is a very bad post. Seriously what are you talking about? Are you bluffing? Value betting? Opposite Day?

And why does noone comment? Is everyone just ignoring him for some reason?

Re: 30-60 hand - mike l thinks I blew one street
 

"And why does noone comment?"

I thought elindauer covered it.

You are right Clark elindauer did cover it N/M
 

N/M

Re: 30-60 hand - mike l thinks I blew one street
 

I also think Clarkmeister is hanging around with a bad crowd [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]. Maybe we should transfer him to a different casino.

Btw, capping the flop would be a very big mistake IMO. Very big. You lose information by capping and also reduce your chances of getting a field narrowing check-raise in.

Folding is your best option preflop.

Re: 30-60 hand - mike l thinks I blew one street
 

6s 6h 237456 21.87 845690 77.87 2862 0.26 0.219
7h 5h 217705 20.05 865441 79.69 2862 0.26 0.201
9s Ac 266381 24.53 816765 75.21 2862 0.26 0.246
Kc Jc 361604 33.30 721542 66.44 2862 0.26 0.334

That's assuming there isn't a higher pair out against you.

Higher pair out:

6s 6h 176242 16.23 905800 83.41 3966 0.37 0.163
7h 5h 124595 11.47 942989 86.83 18424 1.70 0.122
9s Ac 402739 37.08 679303 62.55 3966 0.37 0.372
7s 7c 364008 33.52 703576 64.79 18424 1.70 0.343

And those are about as favorable of raise, reraise, and reraise hands as you could imagine.

Add to that your hand is by far the hardest to play correctly and you are in the worst position, your preflop play is a terrible mistake. The fact that you considered capping is an inexcusable mistake, IMO.

I'd love to see you handle the Q-10-5 flop correctly. Or the 9-2-3 flop.

Re: 30-60 hand - mike l thinks I blew one street
 

Situation 1 is plenty to justify playing, and that assumes that none of my opponents hold each others outs.

Also, my relative position on this hand is fabulous.

It's not like I'd never fold a pair for 3 bets in the BB, there are tons of spots where I would. But not against a readable local and 2 retards and who are spewing.

If the flop is QT5 I fold, what's the big problem?

Re: 30-60 hand - mike l thinks I blew one street
 

[ QUOTE ]
But not against a readable local and 2 retards and who are spewing.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh, the irony. J/K. Kinda.

Re: 30-60 hand - mike l thinks I blew one street
 

You are good on the Q-10-5 flop and in that situation a fair amount of times and in the situation I indicated. By you making incorrect folds you equity goes down the garbage disposal.

I also think situation 1 is highly favorable for you (eventhough outs aren't crossed) because you are underestimating the chances of a bigger pair being out.

Also, since you considered capping, you shouldn't be allowed to use the relative position argument, since capping would put your relative postion in the toilet.

Re: 30-60 hand - mike l thinks I blew one street
 

Very much so. Almost as much as ironic as Clark's use of LAG to describe other players.